Yoot Pastor Shoots Petty Criminal

[MichaelC]

Still, if he used his brain, he used it only once.  Nothing sounds right about his story, except there probably was some sort of "invasion".

You asked the question:

quote:At what point does a youth pastor decide that bringing a gun to an overnighter is a good idea?

It's valid.  And the answer is, the youth minister was either doing something stupid or devious.  Stupid:  Not packing it up and sleeping in your own bed.  Stupid:  Having a gun and somebody's seventeen year old kid there for security.  Stupid:  Not having another adult around for this "sleepover".  Stupid:  Thinking it was so important to be there with a gun, yet closing it the next day.  Stupid:  Being in the middle of Muskogee, and not calling the police immediately.  Devious:  Pedophilia.  Stupid/Devious:  Stands been robbed before, going to pop them this time.  

What little I know about Youth Ministers, I'd bet on stupid.  Can't count devious out.  He's not a hero, he's a fool with a gun.  And fools with guns end up in lots of places and situations.

[iplaw]

Fool?  Devious?

I have been unfortunate enough to have worked fireworks stands for various fund raising activities over the years, and each year, without fail, every stand owner/operator who lived on premises or slept overnight had a gun on the premises, both for personal safety and to prevent theft.

Why are people still acting as if this was a youth event, as if they were have a lock-in and watching movies?

Someone is being very deceptive about this story, but it isn't the guy who shot someone.  And from the sound of MichaelC's last post making generalizations about how youth pastors are stupid, I can be confident in my previous assessment that this is just a good opportunity to take pot shots at religious people.  Your bias against religion is sad.  

Maybe if he were out shooting fetuses instead of criminals you'd be happy?

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Why are people still acting as if this was a youth event, as if they were have a lock-in and watching movies?

The only one that's implying that is you.  And the author of the thread, sort of.  No reason to get too defensive, though the topic and title should be changed.

Not every Youth Minister is brilliant, not every Youth Minister is the model of "Christianity."  Even though the thread starts off implying that it's all about "Christians."  

And yes, I'm still betting on fool.  And can't count out devious.  Everything this guy has said so far, is that "The stand was so important that we had to defend it with somebody else's 17 year old kid and a gun.  But not so important as to keep it open after this event."

[Conan71]

"Did you say 'two YOOTS'?"

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Why are people still acting as if this was a youth event, as if they were have a lock-in and watching movies?

The only one that's implying that is you.  And the author of the thread, sort of.  No reason to get too defensive, though the topic and title should be changed.

Not every Youth Minister is brilliant, not every Youth Minister is the model of "Christianity."  Even though the thread starts off implying that it's all about "Christians."  

And yes, I'm still betting on fool.  And can't count out devious.  Everything this guy has said so far, is that "The stand was so important that we had to defend it with somebody else's 17 year old kid and a gun.  But not so important as to keep it open after this event."

Not upset at all as I have no dog in this hunt, but I do take exception to you generalizing all youth pastors as stupid.

What difference does it make whether he had another adult or a 17 year old with him?  It was a good opportunity for the kid to work or volunteer time and would having another adult there changed the outcome?  Doubt it.  As for your insinuation that the youth pastor was having sex with the kid, that's just sad.

And yes, closing a fireworks stand after someone gets shot is a reasonable reaction by all parties.  Why would they want to close it before an incident?  It's like demanding QT  never open again because one QT closed down for a day after a robbery...you don't stop living because some jackasses think you're an easy target.

[bokworker]

Thanks for the levity Conan..... one of the funniest movies ever.

[tim huntzinger]

Do not fret, I have not abandoned all sense, MC.  I still believe that all involved were put into peril because of bad decisions: not to better secure the product, to bring a gun (which allows for a heightened, false sense of secuity), and for the assailants to mistake the WCOG for Quakers.

But all you gun owners know that you would love nothing better than to shoot someone justifiably.  How could you not? In that sense, do you not hope for a just such a confrontation because it validates owning the damned thing.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

Are gun-toting Brothers militant Christians or militant about their Christianity?  Does the sequence of the 'Mercan Trinity of God, Country, Family matter as long as all three are there?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger


But all you gun owners know that you would love nothing better than to shoot someone justifiably.  How could you not? In that sense, do you not hope for a just such a confrontation because it validates owning the damned thing.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

Absolutely not true.  I hope the only thing I ever shoot with a firearm is targets, or the old refrigerator we use for target practice where we go shoot out in the country.  I don't even hunt anymore and wasn't that big on it when I used to on occasion.

I believe that would be the same statement you'd get out of 98% of all legal gun owners- that they hope they never have to shoot someone.  Probably the exact opposite percentages for creeps who don't own a legal firearm or don't own it legally.  

BTW- here's my self portrait.  You're right I'd never hang cholo out in the barrio:

[iplaw]

quote:But all you gun owners know that you would love nothing better than to shoot someone justifiably.

 Wow.  Talk about bias.  I own two guns and not once have I ever fantasized about shooting another human being, nor have I ever heard someone I know say that would be a pleasant experience.  That's just sick, and probably the most ignorant statement I've heard in a long time.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Not upset at all as I have no dog in this hunt, but I do take exception to you generalizing all youth pastors as stupid.

What difference does it make whether he had another adult or a 17 year old with him?  It was a good opportunity for the kid to work or volunteer time and would having another adult there changed the outcome?  Doubt it.  As for your insinuation that the youth pastor was having sex with the kid, that's just sad.

I wasn't insinuating that, but it's an option to this guy being just plain stupid.  Obviously, fireworks stands get robbed.  The guy knew this, instead of packing it up, he camped out and brought his own weapon.  Then he proceeded to bring someone else's 17 year old kid along, nothing about his story says he's smart.  

Smart would have avoided this.  No reason to set yourself and someone else's kid up, for a robbery, killing, maiming, or anything else, over a fundraiser.

I haven't met many bright youth ministers, that's not to say there aren't any, but his story fits my experience perfectly.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Not upset at all as I have no dog in this hunt, but I do take exception to you generalizing all youth pastors as stupid.

What difference does it make whether he had another adult or a 17 year old with him?  It was a good opportunity for the kid to work or volunteer time and would having another adult there changed the outcome?  Doubt it.  As for your insinuation that the youth pastor was having sex with the kid, that's just sad.

I wasn't insinuating that, but it's an option to this guy being just plain stupid.  Obviously, fireworks stands get robbed.  The guy knew this, instead of packing it up, he camped out and brought his own weapon.  Then he proceeded to bring someone else's 17 year old kid along, nothing about his story says he's smart.  

Smart would have avoided this.  No reason to set yourself and someone else's kid up, for a robbery, killing, maiming, or anything else, over a fundraiser.

I haven't met many bright youth ministers, that's not to say there aren't any, but his story fits my experience perfectly.

I see where you're coming from.  Not really the place for a kid, especially one you have custody of, but I still don't get why it's not okay for him to have a gun while he's there.

Unless the city is willing to provide security like a bank, they really don't have any other option.  Regardless of this being a church or not, the same dangers exist for anyone who runs one of these places.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger
But all you gun owners know that you would love nothing better than to shoot someone justifiably.  How could you not? In that sense, do you not hope for a just such a confrontation because it validates owning the damned thing.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

That's not it at all. But I'd rather have a couple of firearms and never once needing them, than to one day find myself in the situation where I'll need one and not having one.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by mr.jaynes

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger
But all you gun owners know that you would love nothing better than to shoot someone justifiably.  How could you not? In that sense, do you not hope for a just such a confrontation because it validates owning the damned thing.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

That's not it at all. But I'd rather have a couple of firearms and never once needing them, than to one day find myself in the situation where I'll need one and not having one.

And here's your: AMEN! Brother Jaynes []

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

I still don't get why it's not okay for him to have a gun while he's there.

It's legal, I guess that makes it "okay".

quote:Unless the city is willing to provide security like a bank, they really don't have any other option.

He could have called the Police.  He was in Muskogee, not a terribly small town.  According to the Phoenix story, the YM was afraid as soon as they arrived the second time.  Also, the cops were called out on a "shots fired" complaint (not by the YM), and the cops arrived before the wounded invader could pick himself up.  That's a pretty quick response.  There is a police presence there, he fired first and didn't even think about calling the cops until they showed up.

However, again, nothing about this guys story says he's smart.  It seems to keep coming back to that.  That Church needs to think about fundraisers, fireworks, and who they want to represent them as Youth Minister IMO.

[Conan71]

Of course that guy could have been KO'd by the time the cops got there.  His options were to:

A) Let the thugs keep beating the kid and reach for his cell phone while he was being rushed, then get his donkey kicked, or stabbed, or while he waited for the police to respond.

or

B) Pull his piece and stop the melee before it escalated further.

The police can't be everywhere at once, and can't stake out every podunk fireworks stand, convenience store, or house.  

That's why there are laws which do allow people to defend themselves with a firearm.