PRESERVEMIDTOWN.com

[tim huntzinger]

These signs are popping up all over midtown.  Excellent!

The dilemna for legacy homeowners is whether to bother fixing up their properties before putting them on the market (particularly in high-interest neighborhoods).  If the real value is the property and not the house, when the house is going to be demolished anyway, why landscape, fix it up at all? Legacy homes just deteriorate.

Repeat after me: 'Tuscan architecture is eeeeeeevil, Tuscan architecture is eeeeevilllll . . .'

Preserve Midtown

[dsjeffries]

Thanks for the link!  It's nice to see that a group is working together not just for one specific neighborhood but in such a large area of town.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

These signs are popping up all over midtown.  Excellent!

The dilemna for legacy homeowners is whether to bother fixing up their properties before putting them on the market (particularly in high-interest neighborhoods).  If the real value is the property and not the house, when the house is going to be demolished anyway, why landscape, fix it up at all? Legacy homes just deteriorate.

Repeat after me: 'Tuscan architecture is eeeeeeevil, Tuscan architecture is eeeeevilllll . . .'

Preserve Midtown

Yes, they need to tear down that nasty Philbrook immediately. Completely out of scale with the homes next to it and that gawd awful "faux Iitalian" knock off look is wearing thin.

Funny thing happened today.  Finished driving a friend around downtown and telling him about this and that building, was headed south on Utica, stopped at the 21st and Utica intersection.  He points at that "faux italian monstrosity" so many people on here seem to hate and goes "Oooh what building is that? Its very nice." I think he must have thought it was an actual old building or something.  I laughed remembering how so many on here have spewed scorn at it. Just think, soon there will be a whole generation of young people who wont remember the gas station that used to be there and will think of that building as being part of the familiar natural charm and beauty of the area. lol

[tim huntzinger]

Well, Arteest, if it is revealed that Phillie is made with faux beams, drywall, cheap pine, the back half is slat and boards, and squeezed on a lot like Kristie Alley in jeans, then DOWN SHE GOES!! []

SHOCKING that a true arteest cannot distinguish between the classical symmetry of Italian Renaissance and the randomness of the faux Tuscan countryside farmhouses.  The disaster on Utica is akin to a gargantuan bungalow, or gigantic cottage. []

Give me a boring ol' ranch house (which so many here seem to hate) anyday . . .

[TheArtist]

I can distinguish between the two very well thank you.  My point was to try and inject a point of caution.  I hear people making blanket proclimations of "No tear downs" and I think there are some homes that could actually be replaced with more appropriate ones, (not Philbrook btw) Or people scream "No homes of inappropriate size." here again too general, you can build a larger home that doesn't squeeze onto a lot, has similar wall height, architecural scale,mass, etc. People holler, "No faux Italian or Tuscan architecture."  While there are plenty of older examples of both in the historic parts of town.  They usually have wall height, wall planes, architectural details, windows, etc. that are to scale and proportional with other nearby homes. If your beef is about the materials used, then work to have regulations on that, don't diss the style.

[cannon_fodder]

Good points Artist.

Not too mention, there are some homes that would be better off as empty lots (looks at the 'historic home' next to him, built in the 1940's... with cinder block walls, as it sits vacant, again).  The picture on the homepage shows many houses in disrepair.  Instead of making a clear point, the picture raises a debate.  

What's worse, a new abomination or an old classic in horrible disrepair?

Truth is, most people are not willing to take the time and money to try and bring back something that is not in line with current preferences anyway.  Many of those old homes still have asbestos, sub standard wiring, poor insulation,  slats instead of dry wall and on and on.  I very much like houses that are unique but still fit in, but as I have not taken the trouble nor expense to try and restore a home and in fact bought an infill house - I can not begrudge those that do the same.

In fact, I was damn pleased when a nice new house was built next to me.  The next construction next to me is o much nicer, cleaner, and does more for the neighborhood than the two most "historic" homes in the neighborhood to the other side.  Which I pray burn down every 4th of July.

[Double A]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating.                           This is why it is so critical that we develop a system of zoning or codes that use a mixture neighborhood stabilization overlays, conservation districts, historic preservation zoning, and form based codes. We need to develop planning and zoning that offers the uniformity and flexibility to provide infill development that is in character, scale, and harmony with existing neighborhoods. Until that happens, I support this effort to preserve midtown.

[NCTulsan]

Just curious .... on the Preserve Midtown website, the pic of the out-of-scale tri-level house from the June 15 article on the front page ..... is that an actual house in Tulsa?

[Kenosha]

The law of unintended consequences often follows good intentions.  While this "Preserve Midtown" group has graciously volunteered to "educate" the poor uninformed folk out there about the dangers of infill development, they may not realize that they walk a very slippery slope.  The truth is, old neighborhoods need infill investment.  It validates the value of their property.  Supposedly, Midtown is a desireable place to live in Tulsa, but one should not assume that will always be the case.  Case in point: Try to find a three bedroom, two bathroom house in Midtown. It's pretty standard fare for South Tulsa to have proportionally the same number of bathrooms as bedrooms.  These older houses do not always meet the critera many families need.  Now, a true urbanist will overlook such shortcomings, realizing the charm of the home and the area outwiegh them.  But to think that most people are willing to do this is false.  What I am getting to is this, in order for Midtown to continue to be a viable place, the existing homes need to be in as good of condition as they can, and we need good infill development, niether of which will not happen with onerous regulation, perceived or otherwise.

I, personally, would not wish to see anymore of the type of HP Overlay zoning we have implemented here in the past, for the reasons stated above.  It is too heavy handed on the small, less important stuff (windows and doors, style), and not toothy enough on the important stuff (scale, rhythm, proportion, teardowns).  It discourages investment in older homes, encourages weekend warrior home improvement projects (when no HP officer is on duty), and because of bad press and word of mouth associated with HP, HP district homes sit on the market far longer than their bretheren outside of the district, which is not good for midtown and not good for the neighborhoods.  

Am I saying that HP hasn't been good for the neighborhoods?  Absolutely not.  It saved Yorktown, Swan Lake and Maple Ridge.  Has it been good for Brady Heights? Not so sure.  Too early to tell, but they have other problems up there to contend with.  The problem is this.  Because HP was so effective in revitalizing these neighborhoods, there is more pressure than ever for investment in them.  In the past, you couldn't get someone to fix up some of these houses. Now we have the opposite problem. So, which problem would you rather have?  

If I had my druthers, I'd ditch the current HP rules, and put general scale and proportion regulations, broadly defined stylistic requirements, akin to many homeowners covenants around the city, with some tougher teardown rules, and let it be.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Good points Artist.

Not too mention, there are some homes that would be better off as empty lots (looks at the 'historic home' next to him, built in the 1940's... with cinder block walls, as it sits vacant, again).  The picture on the homepage shows many houses in disrepair.  Instead of making a clear point, the picture raises a debate.  

What's worse, a new abomination or an old classic in horrible disrepair?

Truth is, most people are not willing to take the time and money to try and bring back something that is not in line with current preferences anyway.  Many of those old homes still have asbestos, sub standard wiring, poor insulation,  slats instead of dry wall and on and on.  I very much like houses that are unique but still fit in, but as I have not taken the trouble nor expense to try and restore a home and in fact bought an infill house - I can not begrudge those that do the same.

In fact, I was damn pleased when a nice new house was built next to me.  The next construction next to me is o much nicer, cleaner, and does more for the neighborhood than the two most "historic" homes in the neighborhood to the other side.  Which I pray burn down every 4th of July.

This is near-ish to you isn't it CF?  3100 blk. of E. 27th.

Living near Florence Park, There have been a few tear-downs over the years, maybe they've been homes that burned then were re-developed.  There have also been hideous additions to homes that don't fit the area either.

When someone comes into a neighborhood like that which is predominantly brick cottages and bungalows, and put's up something that looks like it belongs in Broken Arrow, it stands out like a sore thumb on that block.

Not really sure what my point was, just wanted to rant. []

[cannon_fodder]

Yeah, that doesnt fit in too well at all.  I think that's about 7 blocks from my house.

Luckily, the infill in my area was done very well.   Most notably, the height is in proportion to other properties in the neighborhood.  I think that's why the house above and in the article look so entirely goofy.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Supposedly, Midtown is a desireable place to live in Tulsa, but one should not assume that will always be the case.  Case in point: Try to find a three bedroom, two bathroom house in Midtown. It's pretty standard fare for South Tulsa to have proportionally the same number of bathrooms as bedrooms.  These older houses do not always meet the critera many families need.  Now, a true urbanist will overlook such shortcomings, realizing the charm of the home and the area outwiegh them.  But to think that most people are willing to do this is false.  

To my knowledge, a 3 bedroom 2 bath house is pretty standard fare in midtown Tulsa.  If a family of 4-5 persons can not survive with only 2 full baths, then they are either spoiled rotten wastefull consumers, or they should look elsewhere for a house to suit their "criteria."

HP zoning is GREAT, and in my opinion should be more restrictive than it currently is.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Supposedly, Midtown is a desireable place to live in Tulsa, but one should not assume that will always be the case.  Case in point: Try to find a three bedroom, two bathroom house in Midtown. It's pretty standard fare for South Tulsa to have proportionally the same number of bathrooms as bedrooms.  These older houses do not always meet the critera many families need.  Now, a true urbanist will overlook such shortcomings, realizing the charm of the home and the area outwiegh them.  But to think that most people are willing to do this is false.  

To my knowledge, a 3 bedroom 2 bath house is pretty standard fare in midtown Tulsa.  If a family of 4-5 persons can not survive with only 2 full baths, then they are either spoiled rotten wastefull consumers, or they should look elsewhere for a house to suit their "criteria."

HP zoning is GREAT, and in my opinion should be more restrictive than it currently is.

The difference is in your definition of "mid-town" which has been exhaustively discussed here in the past. Steve, your midtown neighborhood of Lortondale is full of 3/1.5 and 3/2 houses. Florence park and Brookside are also midtown and are rife with 2/1, 3/1 and 3/1.5 homes. If you really need two full baths and don't want to add one to your home, then you have fewer homes to look at over here and they will carry stronger prices.

[Conan71]

I think the rear stoop counts as a .5 bath in an emergency, doesn't it?

[midtownnewbie]

I live in midtown and we have a rundown 1 1/2 story home on our street that is vacant, unmaintained and basically looks like crap.  I'd much rather have it sell for the land value and have a buider build a McMansion that will not only enhance our home value but will look better than the existing rundown shack!  JMO...