PRESERVEMIDTOWN.com

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

the only other "walls in the vicinty" are retaining walls... so yeah, i'd say it is out of context... thats alright, it just gives the burglars something to hide behind...

Would it be better if it were a wood privacy fence?  I guess I don't understand the aversion to walls around sideyards when there is a privacy issue.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

the only other "walls in the vicinty" are retaining walls... so yeah, i'd say it is out of context... thats alright, it just gives the burglars something to hide behind...

Would it be better if it were a wood privacy fence?  I guess I don't understand the aversion to walls around sideyards when there is a privacy issue.

oops, just got yelled at ... i still don't like and think the house should have had a backyard...

[booWorld]

There are some privacy fences in the vicinity.  I did see some masonry retaining walls in the neighborhood.  In fact, there is a retaining wall on the east side of Madison near 19th with a fence built on top.  It appears to be much taller than the new wall at 20th & Madison.

Although there aren't very many privacy walls, there are plenty of privacy fences in Maple Ridge.  But the streets are fairly wide resulting in an open feeling, at least in my opinion.  The streets of Maple Ridge do not seem alley-like to me.  I don't see any violation of the Zoning Code in this case, and a good portion of the perimeter of the property is open.  There are HP restrictions, but I don't understand how the wall fails to meet the guidelines.

[booWorld]

I went by 20th and Madison yesterday.  I spent only a few seconds looking at the wall.  Maybe I am confused about the location, because the front yard looked very open to me.  There is a tall stone privacy wall near the sidewalk along the south portion of the lot line along Madison.

Is the property in question at the southwest corner of the intersection?

[booWorld]

I went to Maple Ridge today for another look.  I think the stone wall along Madison is not out of context because so many walls and fences have existed in the neighborhood for decades, especially on corner properties.  The new wall does not seem out of place to me.  In that neighborhood south of 17th Place, it is fairly common to see tall privacy fences and walls along the named avenues and relatively open property lines along the numbered streets.  There are 15 corner properties along Madison between 17th Place and 21st Street.  Of those 15 corner properties, 9 have tall walls or fences along Madison:

1.  Southeast corner at 17th Pl -- brick and metal fence

2.  Northwest corner at 18th St -- privacy wall covered with stucco and drop siding above a stone retaining wall

3.  Southwest corner at 18th St -- brick and metal fence atop a brick retaining wall

4.  Northwest corner at 19th St -- brick and wood privacy fence atop a brick retaining wall

5.  Southwest corner at 19th St -- wood privacy fence

6.  Southeast corner at 19th St -- wood privacy fence on a terrace

7.  Northeast corner at 20th St -- brick and wood privacy fence atop a brick retaining wall

8.  Southwest corner at 20th St -- new stone privacy wall

9.  Southeast corner at 20th St -- wood privacy fence atop a terrace



I also noticed a brick privacy wall at the southwest corner of Norfolk and 18th, so I think the tradition of tall fences and walls in the neighborhood is well established.

In July, I asked where developers were building houses right up to the curb in Midtown.  August rolled by with no reply from Preserve Midtown.  September rolled by with no reply.  69 days after I posted my question, Chris Halliwell posted this reply:

quote:Originally posted by Chris Halliwell

I'm sorry I wasn't paying more attention to the discussion here. I don't speak for Preserve Midtown, but I'm proud to be part of it and I helped with the website.

The opening paragraph says some developers "build houses right up to the curb." My first draft read simply "build right up to the curb", and I was referring to the privacy walls and personal parking lots that are replacing many of Midtown's lawns. I later added "house" simply to improve the layout, and I didn't see at the time that I changed the meaning. It was a mistake.

I'm wondering where those privacy walls and personal parking lots are being built right up to the curb in Midtown.  The walls in Maple Ridge are not built right up to the curb.  I imagine that if the average Tulsan were to describe Madison Avenue between 17th Place and 21st Street, that the phrase "desolate alley" would not be part of the desciption.  

I can think of a wall built right up to the curb at the southwest corner of 22nd and Troost, but I don't see many built on public property like that one is.  I'm not certain, but I think it is illegal to build walls right up to the curb in most cases.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

I went to Maple Ridge today for another look.  I think the stone wall along Madison is not out of context because so many walls and fences have existed in the neighborhood for decades, especially on corner properties.  The new wall does not seem out of place to me.  In that neighborhood south of 17th Place, it is fairly common to see tall privacy fences and walls along the named avenues and relatively open property lines along the numbered streets.  There are 15 corner properties along Madison between 17th Place and 21st Street.  Of those 15 corner properties, 9 have tall walls or fences along Madison:

1.  Southeast corner at 17th Pl -- brick and metal fence

2.  Northwest corner at 18th St -- privacy wall covered with stucco and drop siding above a stone retaining wall

3.  Southwest corner at 18th St -- brick and metal fence atop a brick retaining wall

4.  Northwest corner at 19th St -- brick and wood privacy fence atop a brick retaining wall

5.  Southwest corner at 19th St -- wood privacy fence

6.  Southeast corner at 19th St -- wood privacy fence on a terrace

7.  Northeast corner at 20th St -- brick and wood privacy fence atop a brick retaining wall

8.  Southwest corner at 20th St -- new stone privacy wall

9.  Southeast corner at 20th St -- wood privacy fence atop a terrace



I also noticed a brick privacy wall at the southwest corner of Norfolk and 18th, so I think the tradition of tall fences and walls in the neighborhood is well established.

In July, I asked where developers were building houses right up to the curb in Midtown.  August rolled by with no reply from Preserve Midtown.  September rolled by with no reply.  69 days after I posted my question, Chris Halliwell posted this reply:

quote:Originally posted by Chris Halliwell

I'm sorry I wasn't paying more attention to the discussion here. I don't speak for Preserve Midtown, but I'm proud to be part of it and I helped with the website.

The opening paragraph says some developers "build houses right up to the curb." My first draft read simply "build right up to the curb", and I was referring to the privacy walls and personal parking lots that are replacing many of Midtown's lawns. I later added "house" simply to improve the layout, and I didn't see at the time that I changed the meaning. It was a mistake.

I'm wondering where those privacy walls and personal parking lots are being built right up to the curb in Midtown.  The walls in Maple Ridge are not built right up to the curb.  I imagine that if the average Tulsan were to describe Madison Avenue between 17th Place and 21st Street, that the phrase "desolate alley" would not be part of the desciption.  

I can think of a wall built right up to the curb at the southwest corner of 22nd and Troost, but I don't see many built on public property like that one is.  I'm not certain, but I think it is illegal to build walls right up to the curb in most cases.

there is no tradition for eliminating your backyard... that is how they built the house and that is why it has a huge ugly wall on three sides... it is overbuilt for the lot... the wall is the cherry on top...

[Chris Halliwell]

From PreserveMidtown.com:

quote: Forum and Panel Discussion October 16

Preserve Midtown, in association with the Coalition of Historic Neighborhoods of Tulsa, is pleased to announce our first forum and panel discussion, "Taming the Teardown: A Moratorium to Save our Heritage". The forum will be Tuesday, October 16 at 7:00 pm, at All Souls Unitarian Church, 2952 S. Peoria in Tulsa.

Guest presenters Amanda De Cort, Guy De Verges and Steve Novick will speak on the economics of teardowns, environmental consequences, and conservation districting. Stephanie De Verges, MPA will moderate. Additional panelists and guests will include Michelle Cantrell of TMAPC, District 9 City Councilor Cason Carter and District 4 City Councilor Maria Barnes.

Please join us, listen, learn, express your views. And if you haven't yet, please sign our petition!

Also, the wording in the opening paragraph has been corrected. It is no longer suggested that houses are flush with curbs.

[carltonplace]

Notes on the meeting from the Tulsa World

Paul Kane said his group would like to create an architectural review committee that would look at builders' house plans and provide a "stamp of approval" to those that meet appropriate standards for scale and scope.

"The Home Builders Association does not want to be looked upon as the bad guy," Kane said. "The Home Builders Association wants to be looked upon as part of the solution."

Kane spoke at "Taming the Teardown: A Moratorium to Save our Heritage," a forum attended by more than 100 people at All Souls Unitarian Church, 2952 S. Peoria Ave.

The event was sponsored by the group Preserve Midtown in association with the Coalition of Historic Neighborhoods of Tulsa.

Preserve Midtown is trying to stop what it sees as a proliferation of poor infill projects -- out-of-scale, out-of-character houses that don't fit into the existing neighborhoods.

[tim huntzinger]

Incredibly, Enterline Construction is suing Preserve Midtown!(FOX23)

Enterline's loyyah sez: 'They have a detrimental affect on the business, they run buyers off and they keep the buyers and the builders from being able to do their jobs.'

Hope he can prove it!  Sounds like he is describing the Earth Liberation Front.

[izmophonik]

I'm not really either for or against this whole "McMansion" thing yet but here's my logic.  Someone agree or disagree for the sake of argument here.  I'm a home owner and someone buys a lot next to me to raze the property and build a home that possibly looks like is is about 1,000 sq. ft. larger than any other home in the neighborhood.  Let's just say it's a Mediteranian style home too for giggle.  I'm thinking my home value *could* increase at some point.  It won't go down anyway.  Also, I know the city will asess a higher property tax on that home.  Lastly,why would I discourage an obviously affluent Tulsan from building in Mid-town?  Would I rather them move to Broken Arrow or Jenks to contribute to that community?  No.  Someone call me crazy here...?

[izmophonik]

...by the way I live in Swan Lake.

[TheArtist]

Many dont want all redevelopment to stop. Just bad redevelopment. They also really want to protect the older homes, while realizing that there are already homes built say in the 70s and 80s that dont fit the character of older neighborhoods and would be perfect canditates for redevelopment...done properly. They are trying to figure out a way to "encourage" good redevelopment while saving older homes, the ones that give the neighborhood its essential character and feel.  A house can be larger, but with attention to things like "wall planes" size of the wall space on the outside, roof lines, breaking up large flat areas, scale of windows, set backs. These tricks can make a larger home  fit in quite nicely with its neighbors. Also things like having the main focus on front of the house be the garage, a "snout house" is to be discouraged. Having proper set backs, etc.  I think form based codes are the best way to go. Right now they are working on putting in a Conservation Overlay. This will enable each neighborhood or area to get together and make its own regulations.

By late next spring the first Form Based Codes area will be on the books in Tulsa. Its been a lot of work and time to get this. It will be for the Pearl District. Once this is done, the legal work, getting the council, builders and others familiar with the concept and regs. It will be easier to then add Form Based Codes to other areas of the city as well, including mid-town.

Do a google search for Form Based Codes. You may find it quite interesting. It can be applied to many different areas, not just commercial and mixed use, but neighborhoods as well.

[izmophonik]

Interesting, well that seems like reasonable things to fight for.  I was under the impression that people were just getting upset about big houses...that does not seem to be the case.  I love preserving the old homes.  My house was built in 1923 and I work hard to keep it looking good.  I think what some of these neighborhoods are lacking that Swan Lake does not is the luxury of the preservation commission.  Without them, people could do what they want here but they pretty much stop anything that won't fit with the neighborhood.  Do these other mid-town neighborhoods have associations or some other legal way to regulate home style etc..?

[tim huntzinger]

You are right on, I think the issue comes when the developer commissions something that is inappropriate for the neighbors more than the neighborhood.

In my instance the developer split the lot and showed up one day with a telephone pole he wanted to place in my backyard.  This would have cost me about $15K to remediate, and if my esposa was not well versed in the law the developer would have rammed the thing in and screwed us big time.

The AEP crew (the developer is retired AEP) were shaking their heads at the work order, knowing that the power lines one foot of my roof pitch would not be kosher.

[carltonplace]

The stabilization overlay is the key to protecting and preserving the character of the neighborhood.