River Plan- Taxes/Funding

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

If Randi Miller can't get another Commissioner to agree, there won't be a vote and this plan will be the same as the Channels.

I am not sure either of the other two want this vote.

This whole discussion is probably moot.

If the two new commissioners are RINO's, then I think she'll easily get a least one other commissioner to vote Yes with her.

Perry and Smaligo were both elected last November, and don't have to face re-election until the year 2010.  

Which ever one or both of them who side with her will have another 3.5 years for the voters to forget about his Affirmative Vote to raise their taxes.  

And, another 3.5 years will provide ample time for the coterie of connected-crony construction companies, engineers, architects, sub-contractors, attorneys, accountants, and bond underwriters to fund them an UNBEATABLE campaign war-chest, or maybe steer some other inducements to the commissioners side businesses.

Does it make you wonder how many city council family members are riding around "test-driving" Dollar/Thrifty rental cars, gratis?

Elected Officials operating at all levels of government form basically a FAVORS-TRADING network, financed of course with O.P.M., to benefit the connected and privileged few.

And we Pay the Freight. Every minute of every  day.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Government at all levels is basically a FAVORS-TRADING network, financed of course with O.P.M., to benefit the connected and privileged few.

All levels?...

Sorry to hear you are so cynical to believe that. I completely disagree.

I have known many an elected official and many a public official who gave up their time to serve or passed up more lucrative careers because they tried to make a difference in their community.

Our government is full of good people too.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Government at all levels is basically a FAVORS-TRADING network, financed of course with O.P.M., to benefit the connected and privileged few.

All levels?...

Sorry to hear you are so cynical to believe that. I completely disagree.

I have known many an elected official and many a public official who gave up their time to serve or passed up more lucrative careers because they tried to make a difference in their community.

Our government is full of good people too.

Don't waste a moment feeling sorry for me; feel sorry for the beleagured taxpayers of our city, state and nation, with upwards of 50% of their economic substance sucked dry by "the plague of a multitude of offices."

I totally agree our government if full of good, dedicated, hard-working employees.  You are probably one of many of our hard-working, dedicated City CIVIL SERVICE employees that keep our necessary vital services functioning despite the wrong-headed spending priorities and ruinously expensive buddy-deals of the SELECTED leaders.

I will edit my previous comments to say that our ELECTED officials at all levels of Government are part of a vast, favors-trading network, because from the lowest school board position to President of the United States, they preside over the control of spending O.P.M.  That is why locally they are selected by their Founder Family patrons, and then elected with their financial backing and the support of the Lorton's World Echo Chamber.

Different networks and different players, but it operates under the same basic ground rule:

THE NEED TO FEED THEIR PATRONS' GREED.

Using O.P.M.

A CAUTIONARY NOTE:

Michael:  Our latest discussion has slightly drifted Off-Topic, which is:

"Comments related to the taxes and private donations for the river plan."

Maybe you'd like to start a New Topic under Political:

Tulsa Banana Republic/Ruling Power Oligarchy/Founder Families/Flint-Rooney-Lorton-Helmerich/NEED TO FEED THE GREED/Black Helicopters/FBI CARNIVORE/UFO's/Ebola Virus.

So, please let's TRY to again STAY on the TOPIC of taxes and private donations for the River Plan.

[cks511]

What?!  Since when is politics and taxes two separate issues....geeeesh I'm laughing.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cks511

What?!  Since when is politics and taxes two separate issues....geeeesh I'm laughing.

They are separate issues because Tulsanow.org Forum Moderator says they are separate.

Tulsanow.org has separate Forums for Development, and also for Political Arena.

The "Moderator" posted this Topic under Development.

So, it IS Development.

You've just got to get your mind right.

"Still shaking that bush, boss".

Cool Hand Luke

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

If Randi Miller can't get another Commissioner to agree, there won't be a vote and this plan will be the same as the Channels.

I am not sure either of the other two want this vote.

This whole discussion is probably moot.

Not moot if word of it trickles back to the county commissioners that there are some Tulsan's concerned enough about it to waste a lot of monitor time to it.  I notice at any given time of the day there are 30 to 50 "guests" on the forum.  No telling who mines this board for ideas or to keep a pulse on what the rank-and-file are saying about the city.

Oh, and Friendly Bear- your comment about the demo cars was very, very creepy.  Our councilor friend was driving a newer Chrysler the other day- a 300 or whatever the current luxury sedan is.  It's a strech connecting the dots, but does make you go: "Hmmm".

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

If Randi Miller can't get another Commissioner to agree, there won't be a vote and this plan will be the same as the Channels.

I am not sure either of the other two want this vote.

This whole discussion is probably moot.

Not moot if word of it trickles back to the county commissioners that there are some Tulsan's concerned enough about it to waste a lot of monitor time to it.  I notice at any given time of the day there are 30 to 50 "guests" on the forum.  No telling who mines this board for ideas or to keep a pulse on what the rank-and-file are saying about the city.

Oh, and Friendly Bear- your comment about the demo cars was very, very creepy.  Our councilor friend was driving a newer Chrysler the other day- a 300 or whatever the current luxury sedan is.  It's a strech connecting the dots, but does make you go: "Hmmm".

Yes, curious about MANY more lurkers than posters.  Strong HEAT indicator on this Topic.

Friends or Foes?  [?]

On the Cars-for-Our-Close-Family-Friends thread....

Suspicions arose when what were formerly Grizzly Bear City Councilors became Teddy Bear City Councilors once Mayor Taylor assumed office.  They are mostly purring now like a WELL-cared for cub.

Theoretically, one of the many ways that politicians graft is to be handed a set of car keys by one of their sponsoring patrons, with the send-off:

"When you're tired of the color, bring it back and we'll exchange it for another one."

No paper trail.  No asset transfer.  No money changes hands.  No operator insurance.  Down on the Patrons books as merely a "loaner" or "demo".  And, just a virtually untraceable tax-deductible business expense for the Patron.

If the politico somehow gets caught red-handed, it's acknowledged as either a "loaner", or the paper-work gets back-dated for the "Lease".  

Wonder who hands delivers the monthly pre-paid gasoline card, too, for their wife or kids to use?  

Or, maybe their kids get a Summer minimal effort or No-Show job at their Patron's company, lawfirm, etc.

All untraceable, unless the FBI already has them staked out or bugged, but likely a LOW risk.

Kind of like how the OU Booster Club provides cool transportation and Walking-Around-Money to its star athletes.

[:O]

[Renaissance]

Yeah, or else the public is intensely interested in whether the naysayers will quash yet another improvement opportunity.  

Of course, we get to come here and read fool's conspiracies while we attempt engage in reasoned discussion, but I suppose that's the beauty of the internet - any idiot with a computer and a cute animal nickname gets a voice.

[TheArtist]

I say we go for the river proposal and all drive landrovers. Actually scatter some large boulders around some of the streets for added effect. Now THAT would have the makings of a really trendy city. Kind of an "Urban Wilderness" theme. The mayor can have neighborhood camp outs instead of picnics. For short jaunts we can get out the ol mountain bikes. Next time a water main breaks, just let er rip, we can have little streams to splash over. And hey, you definitely would not have to mow the grass in such a scenario, it would just add to the authentic ambiance.  Uuuuber kewl duude. [8D]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Yeah, or else the public is intensely interested in whether the naysayers will quash yet another improvement opportunity.  

Of course, we get to come here and read fool's conspiracies while we attempt engage in reasoned discussion, but I suppose that's the beauty of the internet - any idiot with a computer and a cute animal nickname gets a voice.

Feel free to show why I'm wrong........

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Yeah, or else the public is intensely interested in whether the naysayers will quash yet another improvement opportunity.  

Of course, we get to come here and read fool's conspiracies while we attempt engage in reasoned discussion, but I suppose that's the beauty of the internet - any idiot with a computer and a cute animal nickname gets a voice.

That's not fair. I originally am on record as supporting this plan, any plan to get moving on developing the river. After seeing no one able to refute the criticisms presented and beginning to see some patterns emerge on these projects, I changed my mind. It doesn't help that no one seems to care about mine and others reservations. Do they know and hope no one notices? Or do they figure I'm a crackpot and no one will pay attention?

I know they read these forum threads and when they've had enough, they respond or incorporate our ideas. Here's hoping.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Yeah, or else the public is intensely interested in whether the naysayers will quash yet another improvement opportunity.  

Of course, we get to come here and read fool's conspiracies while we attempt engage in reasoned discussion, but I suppose that's the beauty of the internet - any idiot with a computer and a cute animal nickname gets a voice.

That's not fair. I originally am on record as supporting this plan, any plan to get moving on developing the river. After seeing no one able to refute the criticisms presented and beginning to see some patterns emerge on these projects, I changed my mind. It doesn't help that no one seems to care about mine and others reservations. Do they know and hope no one notices? Or do they figure I'm a crackpot and no one will pay attention?

I know they read these forum threads and when they've had enough, they respond or incorporate our ideas. Here's hoping.

WB:

The Vote Yes to Higher Taxes group fully expects that:

their million dollar media buy,

the endorsement by local notables and politicos,

their positive news and editorial coverage in the Lorton's Daily World,

the thousands of Vote Yes Yard Signs placed under implicit threat of immediate termination for non-compliance in the yards of captive employees of companies controlled by the local power elite,

the VACUMNING of the paltry number of yard signs put out by the impotent Vote No Volunteers by the suspiciously recently re-invigorated Yard Sign Nazis,

the very favorable Vote YES slanted news provided by "news" Channel 862,

and, finally and probably MOST IMPORTANT, the heavy thumb of the Tulsa County Commissioner-controlled County Election Board on the ballot count could be more than enough to pick our pockets to fill the pockets of the Flint, Rooney, Lorton, and Kaiser financial interests for many, many years to come.

They NEED to FEED their GREED.

Ain't Democracy Great?

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!  

[B)]

[Breadburner]

Randys hot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TheArtist]

I would still like to see a more detailed presentation of the plan. I really want to see something done along the river. And at first glimpes this looks fine. Not perfect or exactly what I would choose, but no plan will be unless they let me design it. []  

Assuming the more detailed plan that they would put out before the vote had no major "bad suprises" in it, I would vote for it.

However if this happens...

 The suburbs not on the river vote against it, especially after thinking of what they could do with that tax money for themselves. Most of the suburbs are growing and have needs. Also as I see the larger suburbs fleshing out into full blown small cities in their own right, they may tend to more and more just focus on themselves and on how they can attract more corporations, people, etc. I would like to think that they would have an "enlightened self interest" in seeing Tulsa have improved image among other similar sized cities by having these great facilities along the river thus making the whole area grow more. But they seem to be doing quite fine as it is so they may feel more pressure to use a new tax directly for themselves. I can't quite peg how the average voter is going to see this. So if the county vote for this relatively moderate river proposal fails it will send a clear signal that its now dog eat dog, everyone for themselves in this county.

 If this vote fails for this reason, then we are left with a couple of scenarios that I can see.

1. Some sort of "River Community" tax and organization where only the cities directly on the river vote for this plan.

2. A city of Tulsa only vote on a pared down version of the Kaiser plan. A pared down version having only those items directly in Tulsa. The low water dams are the most expensive items. Would like to see a dam for Jenks since it would put water in Tulsas part of the river.  But if the first vote fails we would definitely have to leave out some of the most expensive items, the Jenks and Sand Springs dams, and still have a healthy dose of Kaiser funds, to get it to pass.

Hopefully as more info about the plan comes out and then we get a better feel for voter opinion, we will have an idea of which way this could go. And if it appears that this Kaiser plan will not pass as it is now that they will really consider one of the other 2 options. And do so quickly. In other words, even while pushing for this vote, be working on plan B.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Yeah, or else the public is intensely interested in whether the naysayers will quash yet another improvement opportunity.  

Of course, we get to come here and read fool's conspiracies while we attempt engage in reasoned discussion, but I suppose that's the beauty of the internet - any idiot with a computer and a cute animal nickname gets a voice.

That's not fair. I originally am on record as supporting this plan, any plan to get moving on developing the river. After seeing no one able to refute the criticisms presented and beginning to see some patterns emerge on these projects, I changed my mind. It doesn't help that no one seems to care about mine and others reservations. Do they know and hope no one notices? Or do they figure I'm a crackpot and no one will pay attention?

I know they read these forum threads and when they've had enough, they respond or incorporate our ideas. Here's hoping.

WB:

The Vote Yes to Higher Taxes group fully expects that:

their million dollar media buy,

the endorsement by local notables and politicos,

their positive news and editorial coverage in the Lorton's Daily World,

the thousands of Vote Yes Yard Signs placed under implicit threat of immediate termination for non-compliance in the yards of captive employees of companies controlled by the local power elite,

the VACUMNING of the paltry number of yard signs put out by the impotent Vote No Volunteers by the suspiciously recently re-invigorated Yard Sign Nazis,

the very favorable Vote YES slanted news provided by "news" Channel 862,

and, finally and probably MOST IMPORTANT, the heavy thumb of the Tulsa County Commissioner-controlled County Election Board on the ballot count will be more than enough to pick our pockets to fill the pockets of the Flint, Rooney, Lorton, and Kaiser financial interests for many, many years to come.

They NEED to FEED their GREED.

Ain't Democracy Great?

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!  

[B)]

Yea would hate to see those local people and companies getting rich. Lord knows they don't do anything for or give back to the community. Especially that greedy Kaiser fella. Yea, we should just not do anything to our river. That would show them greedy sob's. Or if we do, don't do it in an area of town where they or anyone else might make money on it. I would never ask for anyone else to help make my home or business interests, heck it might help my neighbors and other businesses do better as well. We sure wouldn't want that.