New plans for Maxwell Convention Center

[sgrizzle]

http://tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070721_1_A1_hByno80804

- expand existing ballroom space to fill need as opposed to building new ballroom
- lets the old arena stay put
- costs no more money
- would help in bidding for events like the NCAA tournament that wanted 2 arenas
- removes some surface parking

[dsjeffries]

I think this is actually a much better idea than demolishing the current arena, and as noted, it provides no transition period concerns for the Talons or Oilers.  It also would allow for us to go after those elusive sporting events that require two arenas so close to each other.

This could prove to be one of the smarter decisions made concerning downtown!

[pfox]

Wow...I hadn't heard this.  Out of the box thinking? Say it ain't so!

[}:)]

Really, if it can be done for the same amount of $$$, it's great.  I suspect it also gives a new hotel more options for physical connections to the convention center.  Far easier to connect to a new building ahead of construction than to retrofit a new connection to an old building.

[TheTed]

That old arena needs renovation badly. It's extremely ugly.

But maybe, after downtown has some more hotels/bars/restaurants, it will help us land the Big 12 tournament.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

Wow...I hadn't heard this.  Out of the box thinking? Say it ain't so!

[}:)]

Really, if it can be done for the same amount of $$$, it's great.  I suspect it also gives a new hotel more options for physical connections to the convention center.  Far easier to connect to a new building ahead of construction than to retrofit a new connection to an old building.

A number of problems...  As the previous post said, the existing arena needs a bunch of money spent on it to make it marketable.  No mention of that in the story, and I can't imagine that's in the budget along with a new structure.

Secondly, the location of the proposed new addition is not adjacent to or near the imginary new hotel.  Any new hotel would still have to attach to the existing structure.

Also, this proposal eliminates the new entry on the east side of the convention center, which was supposed to tie it in with the new arena, and in my opinion, is a needed change.

This will also lead to higher operating and MAINTENANCE costs, something this city seems to habitually forget about.

It MAY be a better plan than Plan A, but it does not strike me as a slam dunk.  And for goodness sake, couldn't they have thought this through a little bit before bids were due on the Plan A remodeling?   "City tells contractors bidding on Convention Center remodel:  Never mind."  ;-)

[cannon_fodder]

Good points OC.  

For sure better than plan A.  I always wondered why replacing a functioning arena with a large ballroom was a good idea.

1) Saves the arena for the Talon's before the arena is done
2) provides another venue for tournaments (maybe learned from their failed basketball bid)
3) Expands the convention center for any events that require such a thing (I'm not in the business of thinking of what would need an arena AND a ballroom, but such a thing probably exists?)

but:

4) Losing the "tie in" entrance hurts.  But is it worth $4mil for cosmetics over function?
5) I hope there is some money for arena renovation as it needs it.  It functions as is, but really needs work to be presentable.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Good points OC.  

For sure better than plan A.  I always wondered why replacing a functioning arena with a large ballroom was a good idea.

1) Saves the arena for the Talon's before the arena is done
2) provides another venue for tournaments (maybe learned from their failed basketball bid)
3) Expands the convention center for any events that require such a thing (I'm not in the business of thinking of what would need an arena AND a ballroom, but such a thing probably exists?)

but:

4) Losing the "tie in" entrance hurts.  But is it worth $4mil for cosmetics over function?
5) I hope there is some money for arena renovation as it needs it.  It functions as is, but really needs work to be presentable.

Funny how NOT spending money to gut the Arena and NOT adding a new $5 million glass entrance will STILL end up costing the same as adding a tiny addition........

Ain't it funny?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Good points OC.  

For sure better than plan A.  I always wondered why replacing a functioning arena with a large ballroom was a good idea.

1) Saves the arena for the Talon's before the arena is done
2) provides another venue for tournaments (maybe learned from their failed basketball bid)
3) Expands the convention center for any events that require such a thing (I'm not in the business of thinking of what would need an arena AND a ballroom, but such a thing probably exists?)

but:

4) Losing the "tie in" entrance hurts.  But is it worth $4mil for cosmetics over function?
5) I hope there is some money for arena renovation as it needs it.  It functions as is, but really needs work to be presentable.

My hope is that Tulsa will do what OKC did and sell the naming rights to this building. Maybe even to a hotel that builds next door. It's possible a hotel will now want to build directly onto the side of the convention center (instead of a skybridge) and thus have "The Tulsa Westin Hotel and Convention Center" or something like that.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


Funny how NOT spending money to gut the Arena and NOT adding a new $5 million glass entrance will STILL end up costing the same as adding a tiny addition........

Ain't it funny?

The addition is 40,000+ square feet.  Not an insignificant area.

Entrance was 4mil, demolition was 2 million.  Lets round the change up and say $6.5 million.  Its easy to see how the new construction could eat $6.5mil.  I hope it works out, its better for the Tallons, the Oilers, AND to draw larger events (NCAA, conference Tourni's Etc.)

[perspicuity85]

Are there any updates on this?  Wasn't there supposed to be a city council vote?

[sgrizzle]

Per the article they were "reviewing the plans" but did not say if it required a formal vote.

[AVERAGE JOE]

I'll echo what others have said. Without a major overhaul, the current arena is useless (after it transitions the Talons and Oilers to the new building). It's a depressing dump with absolutely no amenities. If they think the Big XII is going to look favorably at the prospect of having the women play in that dive while the men are in the BOK Center, the powers that be are completely delusional. Whoever said "unmarketable" said it best. Like parking a double-wide in front of the Skelly Mansion and saying you have two residences for sale.

Expect that the arena overhaul will eat up the rest of the Vision 2025 surplus, or that another tax will be proposed. Maybe they could float a bond for it. Who knows, but they have no choice but to throw money at it now.

[cannon_fodder]

I disagree that it is useless.  I have been to several events in the arena.  It was used, it is used.  It has ticket stands, air conditioning, a sound system, beer stands, concession stands and bathrooms - amenities.

It is not flashy.  And yes, it certainly needs some work to be up to modern standards.  But it is not worthless.

What's more, without the Cox Arena - the BOk center is worth a lot less.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

I'll echo what others have said. Without a major overhaul, the current arena is useless (after it transitions the Talons and Oilers to the new building). It's a depressing dump with absolutely no amenities. If they think the Big XII is going to look favorably at the prospect of having the women play in that dive while the men are in the BOK Center, the powers that be are completely delusional. Whoever said "unmarketable" said it best. Like parking a double-wide in front of the Skelly Mansion and saying you have two residences for sale.

Expect that the arena overhaul will eat up the rest of the Vision 2025 surplus, or that another tax will be proposed. Maybe they could float a bond for it. Who knows, but they have no choice but to throw money at it now.

You are absolutely right.  And once again the city seems to be playing fast and loose with the numbers (or the Whirled is not bothering to, or capable of, accurate complete reporting).

Not only have they not addressed the rather large amount of money that will be required to completely remodel the current arena (remember, part of the story we were told to sell the BOK Center was that the current arena was in a dismal state of disrepair).  They also have not addressed the eventual cost of adding the front entrance (which still needs to be done, whether it's in connection with the fantasy hotel or otherwise).  Also not addressed is the cost of remodeling part of the current exhibit hall into the "state's largest ballroom".  (I noticed on their drawings that the new plan is to add new exhibit hall and convert part of the current exhibit hall into the "state's largest ballroom".  And on that note, I'm a little surprised they haven't started calling it the state's largest and most iconic ballroom... they do seem to love that word "iconic".  ;-)  )

And can they really build this addition for only $6,000,000?

Having said that, I think this is overall perhaps a better plan (although I question how many events the old arena, even if remodeled, will be able to draw... even with 2 nearby arenas, downtown Tulsa is still a long ways from getting the Big XII Tournament, IMO).  I just wish they would show us the numbers and explain how all of the costs are going to be covered.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I disagree that it is useless.  I have been to several events in the arena.  It was used, it is used.  It has ticket stands, air conditioning, a sound system, beer stands, concession stands and bathrooms - amenities.

It is not flashy.  And yes, it certainly needs some work to be up to modern standards.  But it is not worthless.

Oooooh.... bathrooms! Air conditioning! Such amenities!!! Do you consider a car with seats, tires and a steering wheel to be loaded with "amenities"?

Let's cut to the chase:

From a pure definition standpoint, the old arena is a large, clear-span building with a seating bowl, so it is a building "with use".

In the real world, it is useless once the BOK center opens - unless it is comprehensively renovated. It's unmarketable in its present condition. That's the party line from the CVB to justify building the new arena. It's a bland cinder-block cave with 8900 cramped seats that hasn't been improved in any significant fashion since it opened in 1964.

Therefore:

1) Who is going to rent it when the glitzy new BOK center is next door? Only those who can't afford the BOK center or don't need that many seats. Which brings us to #2.

2) The old arena is not a marketable stand-alone property. If you need an arena that size and no convention facilities, you'd be better served with the Reynolds Center, the Mabee Center, or (dropping down to the 5,000 seat level) the Pavilion or UMAC, or even (dropping below 2,000) the PAC, Brady Theater or TCC southeast facility. It doesn't compete favorably with the other product in town. The only marketable asset about it is that it's attached to the convention halls. So...

3) If you need an arena that size and/or can't afford the BOK Center AND you need convention hall space... it still sucks. It's the same craphole that has supposedly caused us to lose convention business for the past 10 years. Now it's all of a sudden an asset? Not in its current condition.

4) the added twist of having 2 arenas next door is only relevant for highly specialized events like the Big XII tournament, which we'd only host every few years at best. But even in that light, the old arena in its current condition isn't an asset, it's a deterrent. It would drag the BOK center down like cement shoes. If you need two proximate arenas and you've got bids from Dallas, KC, and OKC, you're not going to accept the craptacular 1964 arena in its current condition as acceptable, no matter how nice the BOK Center is. Just doesn't compete with the other towns' product.

Hopefully, you've gotten the point that all this is tied to the current condition of the old arena. If it were comprehensively renovated into a modern, clean, attractive 8,000 seat arena with even a smattering of modern amenities, then it would be a major asset. But just keeping it as is and pretending it's an asset is a joke.

So again, the point is that if we're keeping the old arena we're going to have to pay for a major overhaul. Until that happens, it's all but useless from a marketing standpoint once the BOK center opens. And that's going to cost $$$$. Where is that going to come from?