New plans for Maxwell Convention Center

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by chlfan

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by chlfan

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The arena clearly needs work, I agree that it is in a neglected condition.  But it is marketable now, so it will be so then.  It NEEDS work, that doesn't mean it is worthless.  Will it serve us better as is, or as a rubble pile?

Two arena's nearby are more important that you think.  Many events (NCAA or conference tournaments among them) do not like playing on other school's courts.  In fact, C-USA simply will not do it (unless its Memphis... which plays at a city facility).  

But I digress.  The real question is simple, is Tulsa better served by a single monster arena downtown, or by a pair of arena's like every major destination city has?  And are we better off trying to reuse the arena or bulldozing it and replacing it with a huge empty space?

I think we are better being able to attract conference tournaments, NCAA games, and smaller venue attractions downtown while adding to the asset base of the city.

I'm afraid you continue to miss the real question. How are we going to pay for the necessary renovations to the old arena?

I'm not arguing against the value of having 2 arenas, which is what you keep defaulting to. But to realize the value of that arrangement, both arenas have to be in good shape. Having 2 cars in the driveway is great if they both run. But if one's up on blocks, it's not doing you much good. The potential is there, but you won't benefit from it until you fix it up.

So again, how are we going to pay for it? My guess is that this subject won't be mentioned by public officials anytime soon, but it will in a year or two...

If you read the article, it says how:

"...No extra funding would be required for the $50.5 million Vision 2025 project, officials said.

The money would come from not having to demolish the arena seating bowl and scrapping a $4 million glass entrance planned to face Fifth Street.

All of the other major components of the renovation -- including the addition of the state's largest ballroom, escalators, extra meeting space and new finishes throughout -- would still be in the plan. ..."

I believe it's your reading comprehension that needs examination.

The article does not say that we're getting the new ballroom and an arena overhaul for the same amount of money as was budgeted for the new ballroom alone. It says they believe that they can build a ballroom addition onto the convention center for the same amount of money as it would cost to convert the arena to a ballroom.

So you did nothing to answer the question of how we're going to pay for an overhaul to the arena. Once they spend the $50 million of Vision 2025 money to build the new ballroom addition, there will be nothing left to renovate the arena.

After the BOK Center opens (give it maybe a year) they'll come crying to the taxpayers, "Aw shucks, this old arena is in such bad shape we need to renovate or we just won't be able to land any business. Can we have tens of millions of dollars, please?" I imagine they'll even act all surprised at their "recent" discovery that the old arena is a major dump that scares off business.

Examine this:

Attacking my "reading comprehension" is a bit over the top! Maybe you have additional info that this article isn't specific about?; maybe you're reading between the lines!!??- At any rate, the fact that someone might interpret an article differently that you shouldn't elicit a response like yours. Lighten up Frances!

Your slant / interpretation may be dead on but your tone towards other posters is what I take exception with. You aren't inviting good dialog when you fail to entertain or just flat out dismiss other points of view.

If you think you know the facts, try sharing or clarifying them in a way that isn't so smug.

Thanks!

I was replying in kind. Your statement, "if you read the article it says how:" was a more subtle way of saying I hadn't even read up on the facts. If my lack of subtlety offends you, I apologize.

My tone is a direct response to a lot of people's reaction here, happily chomping down on the bait and swallowing the hook. Yes, I'm putting a damper on this, but only because it doesn't seem the plan has been thought through, or more likely, has been thought through and "they" simply aren't giving the public the full story -- our change of plans is going to result in millions more in arena costs for the taxpayers. I can see why they'd want to keep that little nugget quiet, but it's there.

So an objective conversation would be -- is it worth it to expend additional money to renovate our old arena so that we have two downtown? What will the costs be? How will we pay for it? What's the projected payback? How many events would use the smaller arena? How will the city pay for the maintenance and staffing for two arenas, when all this time we've only planned on having one?

There are benefits to having a second arena, but they should be weighed against the costs in an objective manner. That's the discussion I hope to spark here.

[Rico]

I still can not understand how they figure this complies with what the V2025 ballot stated...

Maybe it is just me; but when they said they were moving seats from the old arena to the new arena because the cost were so far over projections....
One has to wonder what the long term plan on this Arena Business really is...

I don't have a clue...

"Cash Cow"...... not!

"Stepping Stone"....... I hope so!

"Overwhelming Demand".... no freaking way...

   Why not wait and see how it goes for the first year in operation.

Or does the "steering committee" not steer towards actual achievable goals......?

More Pie in the Sky... and it ain't Key Lime.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Good points OC.  

For sure better than plan A.  I always wondered why replacing a functioning arena with a large ballroom was a good idea.

1) Saves the arena for the Talon's before the arena is done
2) provides another venue for tournaments (maybe learned from their failed basketball bid)
3) Expands the convention center for any events that require such a thing (I'm not in the business of thinking of what would need an arena AND a ballroom, but such a thing probably exists?)

but:

4) Losing the "tie in" entrance hurts.  But is it worth $4mil for cosmetics over function?
5) I hope there is some money for arena renovation as it needs it.  It functions as is, but really needs work to be presentable.

My hope is that Tulsa will do what OKC did and sell the naming rights to this building. Maybe even to a hotel that builds next door. It's possible a hotel will now want to build directly onto the side of the convention center (instead of a skybridge) and thus have "The Tulsa Westin Hotel and Convention Center" or something like that.

Why not the "Tulsa Smackdown Raw Bull Riders Ballroom" for The name....Complete with mountain oysters as Hors Douvres....
By the way I guess this plan would save us from having to replace the "seating" transferred to the New Arena....

Me thinks Katy and Company could benefit from a few Xanax and a "chill out session"  

[sgrizzle]

Everyone keeps bringing up the seating moving but as I remember that was just a suggestion and not feasible as the convention center and arena seats are different sizes.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Everyone keeps bringing up the seating moving but as I remember that was just a suggestion and not feasible as the convention center and arena seats are different sizes.

A thousand pardons Maestro.... You are younger and far more clear of mind than I..

[|)]

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Everyone keeps bringing up the seating moving but as I remember that was just a suggestion and not feasible as the convention center and arena seats are different sizes.

Darn it, Grizzle and this goes for you too, Floyd...  Stop posting facts.

We'd rather read into something in the TW that's clearly not there, than actually stop and realize the city needs flexibility so the downtown arena/convention center can be utilized to its full potential.  The original Vision2025 proposal didn't have a psychic available to envision the increased construction costs after Hurricane Katrina and Rita... or the other options that are opening  up with city hall moving to One Technology Center...  Bad LaFortune, bad dog...

I'd betcha that the Tulsa Sports Commission knows better than we do about whether using the Mabee Center for the women's Big XII games cost Tulsa a bid...

OIL CAPITAL-- "Actually, I don't think OKC had to spend much on their old arena because it was never a ****hole like the current Tulsa arena.

Do you ever quit with your backhanded OKC-centric Tulsa bashing?... did you EVER go to the old Myriad?  I did back in my OCU days... also went to see TU basketball at the Maxwell Center (Assembly Center).  I know what Bricktown AND the Myriad looked like back in the 80s...  And the only difference between the pre-MAPS Myriad (now Cox) and the Maxwell Center was seating capacity... heck, the seats were the same color/size and the bathrooms/concessions were practically identical.  The old Myriad was always bigger than the Assembly Center, but never better.

Heck, if there's ever been a ****hole arena in Tulsa, that honor would go to the Expo Square Pavillion.  That's where the Ice Oilers would play next year if this plan isn't approved.  And the Talons?  Goodbye, next year... and for any minor league club, re-locating to a different city and/or skipping an entire season could be "goodbye," permanently...

---Councilor Bill Christiansen, who has been involved in the discussions, is a supporter of the changes, adding that he wouldn't be if they involved more money.

"I think this would help attract more events," he said. "The public has invested a lot of money in these venues, and we want them to be successful."

Sorry, but that kinda says it all for me... next subject...

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Everyone keeps bringing up the seating moving but as I remember that was just a suggestion and not feasible as the convention center and arena seats are different sizes.

Darn it, Grizzle and this goes for you too, Floyd...  Stop posting facts.


OIL CAPITAL-- "Actually, I don't think OKC had to spend much on their old arena because it was never a ****hole like the current Tulsa arena.

Do you ever quit with your backhanded OKC-centric Tulsa bashing?... did you EVER go to the old Myriad?  I did back in my OCU days... also went to see TU basketball at the Maxwell Center (Assembly Center).  I know what Bricktown AND the Myriad looked like back in the 80s...  And the only difference between the pre-MAPS Myriad (now Cox) and the Maxwell Center was seating capacity... heck, the seats were the same color/size and the bathrooms/concessions were practically identical.  The old Myriad was always bigger than the Assembly Center, but never better.

Good grief.  First of all, I'm not the one who coined the term ****hole" for the Convention Center Arena.  And yes, I've been in the old Myriad, many times.  Only someone seriously delusional (or with a seriously bad memory) could think that the Myriad Arena EVER looked as bad as the current Maxwell Arena.  It just did not.  

I quoted someone else's description of the Convention Center arena as a ****hole and merely made the point that OKC did not have to do much to their old arena to make it marketable.  (Yes, they remodeled the rest of the Myriad Convention Center, but I don't think they've had to do much to the arena.)  And for that I get attacked?  Wow.

[USRufnex]

I'll trust chlfan on that before I would someone who's consistently shown an OKC-bias, all the while going by the screen name, "Oil Capital"....

For some crazy reason, the Ice Oilers like the idea...

quote:The Tulsa Oilers hockey team, which had been scouting the Expo Square Pavilion to play next season, also could continue in the Convention Center until the BOK Center is ready.

"We'd absolutely love to stay put at the Convention Center," Oilers owner Jeff Lund said. "It's been our home now for 15 years and it's very accommodating to our needs."

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I'll trust chlfan on that before I would someone who's consistently shown an OKC-bias, all the while going by the screen name, "Oil Capital"....

For some crazy reason, the Ice Oilers like the idea...

quote:The Tulsa Oilers hockey team, which had been scouting the Expo Square Pavilion to play next season, also could continue in the Convention Center until the BOK Center is ready.

"We'd absolutely love to stay put at the Convention Center," Oilers owner Jeff Lund said. "It's been our home now for 15 years and it's very accommodating to our needs."

So you're in favor of leaving the current Maxwell Convention Center arena alone completely and taking our chances marketing it as an event facility in its present condition? Because that's not part of the funded project. The Vision 2025 money only gets us a ballroom wing added to the north side of the building, no major arena overhaul.

[USRufnex]

Well, if your previous descriptions of conditions at Driller Park match your descriptions of the current conditions at the Maxwell Center, I don't think the place is in bad shape at all... I went to a gathering where I could see the inside of that arena... didn't see the problem... it must be reasonably well-maintained in order to host the Ice Oilers and Talons on a yearly basis...

If hockey or arenaball fans would like to chime in on this, feel free... and 66ers fans can give me an update and tell us if the Pavillion is no longer the dump I remember it being in the 90s...

Once again, I'll defer to fans and management of the Ice Oilers and the Talons as to the current condition of the facility, but I don't think it would take much renovation and may be a midsized option...

I was always puzzled at OKC's decision to keep the old Myriad open, but hey... they've hosted the Big XII basketball championships before and they will again in 2009.  However, the Maxwell Center doesn't hold 8,992 for basketball... that capacity is for concerts... I don't think it'd seat much more than 7,700 for basketball...

But I'll still support Bill Christiansen's views on the situation over the perpetual sour grapes we're guaranteed to read over at Urban Tulsa with another one of Mister Bates' sky-is-falling, anti-arena, anti-Vision2025 tirades...

Imagine if the Drillers had to skip town for a season while a new ballpark was being built...

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I'll trust chlfan on that before I would someone who's consistently shown an OKC-bias, all the while going by the screen name, "Oil Capital"....

For some crazy reason, the Ice Oilers like the idea...

quote:The Tulsa Oilers hockey team, which had been scouting the Expo Square Pavilion to play next season, also could continue in the Convention Center until the BOK Center is ready.

"We'd absolutely love to stay put at the Convention Center," Oilers owner Jeff Lund said. "It's been our home now for 15 years and it's very accommodating to our needs."

Nothing crazy at all.  It's no secret that the Oilers like the idea because it allows them to have a place to play for the upcoming season, rather than being homeless.  

I like the idea too, and have said so.  

But our city "leaders" need to be honest about it and tell us the real costs.  And the real costs of keeping that arena (if it is to be useful in attracting events) includes a complete update/remodel.  Recall that when the city was promoting the vote for the new arena, they told us the old arena needed to be replaced not just because it was small, but also because it was in such a dismal state of repair.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Well, if your previous descriptions of conditions at Driller Park match your descriptions of the current conditions at the Maxwell Center, I don't think the place is in bad shape at all... I went to a gathering where I could see the inside of that arena... didn't see the problem... it must be reasonably well-maintained in order to host the Ice Oilers and Talons on a yearly basis...

If hockey or arenaball fans would like to chime in on this, feel free... and 66ers fans can give me an update and tell us if the Pavillion is no longer the dump I remember it being in the 90s...

Once again, I'll defer to fans and management of the Ice Oilers and the Talons as to the current condition of the facility, but I don't think it would take much renovation and may be a midsized option...

I was always puzzled at OKC's decision to keep the old Myriad open, but hey... they've hosted the Big XII basketball championships before and they will again in 2009.  However, the Maxwell Center doesn't hold 8,992 for basketball... that capacity is for concerts... I don't think it'd seat much more than 7,700 for basketball...

But I'll still support Bill Christiansen's views on the situation over the perpetual sour grapes we're guaranteed to read over at Urban Tulsa with another one of Mister Bates' sky-is-falling, anti-arena, anti-Vision2025 tirades...

Imagine if the Drillers had to skip town for a season while a new ballpark was being built...

To be very honest, the convention center arena is a complete hole. It's really bad. But, it's nothing that can't be fixed. Redo the restrooms, clean and paint the place, install a new ceiling, lighting and better scoreboards and it would be fine. It does not need big structural changes or new seats so I don't think the cost to redo the old arena would be huge.

As for the Pavilion, it has had just such a remodel and it's looking very nice actually. I don't know what the cost was for remodel of the Pavilion, but I would think the convention center arena would be less money as there is no exterior in need of restoration like there was at the pavilion.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

But I'll still support Bill Christiansen's views on the situation over the perpetual sour grapes we're guaranteed to read over at Urban Tulsa with another one of Mister Bates' sky-is-falling, anti-arena, anti-Vision2025 tirades...

For what it's worth, I suggested this approach to building a convention center ballroom (expanding to the north of the exhibit hall) before the Vision 2025 election. Voters could have been given the option of updating and expanding the convention center without having had to approve an 18,000 seat arena.

[Renaissance]

For what it's worth, I can't wait to see performers at the new 18,000 seat arena who wouldn't have come to Tulsa to play the Maxwell, renovated or not.

Not to mention the NCAA postseason events we'll now get.

[joiei]

Out of curiosity, just what is wrong with the old arena at Maxwell Convention Center?  Be specific, talking in generic terms like it is a ****hole is not helpful.  I have been there and yes, it is visually outdated in the reception hall area, but that is a matter of updating.  I am sure that in the 60s and 70s, all those old buildings downtown were considered outdated and needed to be replaced.  So they were leveled and the replacement was never built.  Now people wax poetic about what was lost.  Is the building structurally falling apart?