Let's try a new way of discussing immigration..

[sauerkraut]

USrufnex- there's nothing racist about numbers. They tell the story. We also have a limeted number of jobs.- Jobs are not a national resource where if you give a job to a illegal alien another job will pop up to take the place of the job the illegal alien took. When a illegal alien is working it dis-places a legal citizen, it's that simple. The cost to taxpayers is the socal services they use and don't pay for. This is very serious. Playing a "race card" does not cut it.

[KingMutt]

GEEEEEEEZ.  These immigrants work their butts off. You are all over these boards railing against the immigrants. What are you the Inspector General of the Minutemen  or the Grand Cyclops of the Klan? [}:)]

Immigrants contribute to the economy with their tax dollars (both sales and the taxes they pay into the system that they will never get back)and with their hard work.  

As for a drain on resources, come on, what they contribute outweighs what they "drain."  

These immigrants LOOK DIFFERENT from other people here in Oklahoma.  That is the real problem.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by KingMutt

GEEEEEEEZ.  These immigrants work their butts off. You are all over these boards railing against the immigrants. What are you the Inspector General of the Minutemen  or the Grand Cyclops of the Klan? [}:)]

Immigrants contribute to the economy with their tax dollars (both sales and the taxes they pay into the system that they will never get back)and with their hard work.  

As for a drain on resources, come on, what they contribute outweighs what they "drain."  

These immigrants LOOK DIFFERENT from other people here in Oklahoma.  That is the real problem.

Did you read the links? The illegals are  a burden and a drain not a plus according to the numbers. I don't care how the immigrants look, or the skin color, or what their culture is as long as they come here the legal way. Why do you keep bring up race and culture? That has nothing to do with it.. I'm talking legal and law breaking. When you get a flood of illegal people who are not supposed to be here, displacing legal immigrants it's a big problem, this is also a secutity issue. We do not know nothing about the illegals or their background or even their real name and there's no way to do background checks. Fake I.D. is floating all over the place. Many illegals bring over diseases too, since illegals don't get no medical screening as do legal immigrants who come here..

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

USrufnex- there's nothing racist about numbers. They tell the story. We also have a limeted number of jobs.- Jobs are not a national resource where if you give a job to a illegal alien another job will pop up to take the place of the job the illegal alien took. When a illegal alien is working it dis-places a legal citizen, it's that simple. The cost to taxpayers is the socal services they use and don't pay for. This is very serious. Playing a "race card" does not cut it.

Once again... "lies, damnable lies, and statistics..."  You could apply those very same statistics to the working poor in this country and come to the same conclusions...  

I don't take my marching orders from a fiercely partisan, conservative-Republican stink-tank like the Heritage Foundation, thank you very much.

Okay.  Let's try this...

When all the baby boomers retire, who's gonna pay the taxes to support their strains on our infrastructure?  I think our aging workforce is gonna be more of a burden on the economy than these young "illegal" workers ever will be... so let's document them, tax them, deport the "bad apples," and be done with it...

Why did I put quotation marks on the word illegal?  Because after at least the last two decades of ignoring the illegal immigration problem and not enforcing laws on the books, those laws have become a joke.  If laws haven't been enforced in the entire time we had a "law-and-order" Republican congress and a Republican president... are those laws even valid anymore???

I worked at an El Chico in OKC two decades ago.  I lived in a duplex with neighbors who  likely lived here illegally.  One of them loved to talk to me so he could try out his english... and would tell me what he learned about Thomas Jefferson...

Stereotyping these people as criminals or "invaders" with no intrinsic value to our American society is racist.  And I don't care if you heard it on talk radio.  Sorry.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  If it walks like a racist duck and quacks like a racist duck...

Don't get me wrong.  I don't want to live in a house in east Tulsa next door to a 3-bedroom home with TWENTY hispanics living there.  So yes, there IS a problem... and it's irresponsible not to address it.

But I like the latino family who lives across from me.  They're NOT on section 8.  The dad WORKS.  To my knowledge, they're not selling drugs or cooking meth (unlike some of the "born in the USA" young redneck punks who live in this apt complex)... best of all, they're "good people."  

And I'm convinced that a big chunk of homes in east Tulsa would be boarded up if it weren't for these folks living here, working here, shopping here... opening up businesses here... there's a hispanic chamber of commerce here... these people have value and shouldn't be scapegoated... my old bowling alley (Tiffany Lanes) is filled with little businesses-- while the old Rose Bowl down the street is boarded up... my old skating rink (Skate World) is now a supermercado... Executive Mall on 21st and Garnett is filled with shops... my place of employment has a bilingual dept that could just as easily have been located in Chicago, but those dozens of decent paying jobs are HERE... those are jobs created here in Tulsa and taxes paid here in Tulsa...

If we had double-digit unemployment in this country, I'd think differently.  If the "Meskins" moving into the areas around McClure Park and 21st and Garnett were going on crime sprees, I'd think different.  If those "dirty Meskins" had rusty old trucks on cinder blocks in their front yards instead of the professional landscaping and brickwork--- let's just say I've seen my share of tiny little crackerbox homes with nice lawns... and a truck in the driveway with a big ol' virgin mary painted in white on those tinted windows instead of one of them redneck pics of Calvin pissing on "Dodge" or "Ford" (or the one with Calvin praying)....  

Homes that could have easily been boarded up and could have become magnets for drug-related crime are occupied... by families.  Hard working families who may be working for $7 per hr assembling fishing poles today...

And these people's kids are learning english in our public schools and will be fighting in our military... in fact, many of them already are...

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_arm_rec_per_his-military-army-recruits-percent-hispanic
 

[KingMutt]

Them thar aleeans don't get no meedeeekal scrinin

Gosh.  That must be that high skilled Okie Education showing itself with the double negatives.

The numbers to which you refer are put out by an anti-immigrant think tank.

That's a lot like asking the American Atheists for their take on Evangelicals....won't be too unbiased.

Sure there are criminals, and FOR THE FINAL TIME, THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED AND THEN DEPORTED AND BARRED FROM RE-ENTRY, AND IF THEY COME BACK THEY SHOULD BE IMPRISONED FOR A LONG LONG TIME!!!!

But if you cannot see a difference between Jose who is here to work, and Jose who is driving down the road with a pound of weed and two pistols, then something is wrong wth you, and it is a race issue.

I don't hear you calling for the imprisonment of fat lazy white or black folks who sit around watching talk shows on the government's tit.

Just because a black man shoots someone, I don't hear you calling for troops in black neighborhoods...maybe you will after you rid Oklahoma of the Hispanics...

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by KingMutt

Them thar aleeans don't get no meedeeekal scrinin

Gosh.  That must be that high skilled Okie Education showing itself with the double negatives.

The numbers to which you refer are put out by an anti-immigrant think tank.

That's a lot like asking the American Atheists for their take on Evangelicals....won't be too unbiased.

Sure there are criminals, and FOR THE FINAL TIME, THEY SHOULD BE PUNISHED AND THEN DEPORTED AND BARRED FROM RE-ENTRY, AND IF THEY COME BACK THEY SHOULD BE IMPRISONED FOR A LONG LONG TIME!!!!

But if you cannot see a difference between Jose who is here to work, and Jose who is driving down the road with a pound of weed and two pistols, then something is wrong wth you, and it is a race issue.

I don't hear you calling for the imprisonment of fat lazy white or black folks who sit around watching talk shows on the government's tit.

Just because a black man shoots someone, I don't hear you calling for troops in black neighborhoods...maybe you will after you rid Oklahoma of the Hispanics...

yeah but your mixing up U.S. citizens and foreign citizens who should not be here. Jose who's here to work without legal papers is a criminal (and most likely had to steal someones I.D. in order to get a job and fill out gov't papers with false info and he's also taking a job away from a legal person) as is Jose driving down the street with drugs- In the eyes of the law  both are criminals.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut


yeah but your mixing up U.S. citizens and foreign citizens who should not be here. Jose who's here to work without legal papers is a criminal (and most likely had to steal someones I.D. in order to get a job and fill out gov't papers with false info and he's also taking a job away from a legal person) as is Jose driving down the street with drugs- In the eyes of the law  both are criminals.

uh-huh.  So I guess using that logic, EVERBODY in this country who's got a speeding ticket on their record is also a criminal.

Somebody who steals a loaf a bread?  Criminal.  Somebody who shoots your wife?  Criminal.
Somebody who illegally takes a $7 per hr job assembling fishing poles or emptying out office trash?  Criminal.

If we didn't have these "criminals" out there "stealing" $7 per hr jobs, then we could get back to the good ol' days, and say "you just can't get good help anymore."

[Conan71]

You guys still batting around this tired old canard?

[Lister]

Yeah, alot of opinions are going to be changed by the stuff on this thread, LOL. I have my views, but have given up wasting my breath on forums like this or any like it. NOBODY is going to change anyone else's mind on this.

[KingMutt]

You're probably right, but here's one last thought for Ol'Sauer....

Drive away the construction workers, you drive up the price of housing, so the whole housing market suffers.  Good old regular US Joes cannot get affordable new housing.

Commercial construction suffers too.  So does every business or concern that is touched by construction.

Workers leave, they don't spend their money in grocery stores or restaurants (Mexican or othrewise), these businesses suffer and fire employees.

My last post on this subject, really.

But can't you just see how there is going to be a ripple effect which will hurt all of us by getting rid of these people?

I agree CRIMINALS, dope dealers, rapists, etc. should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but that's not every "illegal alien."

Bad people come in all shades.

I don't buy anything from the anti immigrant think tanks, any more than I would blindly believe the numbers put out by La Raza, but I do believe these immigrants, legal or otherwise, give more than they take.

And I do believe we (Regular ole Americans) are going to suffer if we "drive them out"

Besides, are we really that insecure and backwards that we feel we have to repel a foriegn invasion? It's like a gun show fanatic's wet dream, "Here honey, I finally get to use my AR-15 against those damn Mexican invaders!"  Really, how frigin pathetic is that?

That being said, THIS IS AMERICA, and you have a right to your opinion.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by KingMutt

You're probably right, but here's one last thought for Ol'Sauer....

Drive away the construction workers, you drive up the price of housing, so the whole housing market suffers.  Good old regular US Joes cannot get affordable new housing.

Commercial construction suffers too.  So does every business or concern that is touched by construction.

Workers leave, they don't spend their money in grocery stores or restaurants (Mexican or othrewise), these businesses suffer and fire employees.

My last post on this subject, really.

But can't you just see how there is going to be a ripple effect which will hurt all of us by getting rid of these people?

I agree CRIMINALS, dope dealers, rapists, etc. should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but that's not every "illegal alien."

Bad people come in all shades.

I don't buy anything from the anti immigrant think tanks, any more than I would blindly believe the numbers put out by La Raza, but I do believe these immigrants, legal or otherwise, give more than they take.

And I do believe we (Regular ole Americans) are going to suffer if we "drive them out"

Besides, are we really that insecure and backwards that we feel we have to repel a foriegn invasion? It's like a gun show fanatic's wet dream, "Here honey, I finally get to use my AR-15 against those damn Mexican invaders!"  Really, how frigin pathetic is that?

That being said, THIS IS AMERICA, and you have a right to your opinion.

I can't believe what ya posted. You mean our whole housing market economy rests on having illegal labor? How did they build houses in the past before the illegals flooded in?? American citizens built homes and people could still afford to buy them back in bygone eras.. I would not want to buy a home made by cheap illegal unskilled labor that will just fall apart. There is no free ride anyhow, the illegal alien labor costs all of us in taxes, socal services and free medical care when the illegal gets sick. It costs us more in the long run- not to mention lower wages. I'd want a home built by skilled American workers who are here legal.If it was up to me I'd send in the INS/ICE agents and round up illegals at const. sites and jail the builder who hired them and seize his homes that were built with illegal labor. Then I'd enforce the 1986 immigration law & fine the builder $10,000 per illegal. That will send a message to others not to hire illegal workers.

[Conan71]

Congratulations, you guys have just earned the coveted dead horse award:

[kakie]

Seems there are strong feelings on both sides.  But I do believe in all polls the majority of Americans do not what illegals invading our country.  If you have found a legitimate poll that says otherwise I'd be interested in seeing it.

For all those in the minority on this issue, does the rule of law not matter here?  If so then we have anarchy if illegals can just invade our country.

[Breadburner]

I like Chocolate......

[rwarn17588]

A majority of Americans don't want illegal immigrants deported, either.

Stalemate.