McMansions

[potomac13]

As someone who grew up in Tulsa and has followed this forum for a couple of years, I continue to be amazed at the naïve attitude of some of the posts.

Having observed the development in close-in neighborhoods in several large cities, I find the process remarkably similar:

1.   Well to do couple or single wants proximity to restaurants, shopping and possibly job
2.   What they don't want is a 1,500 square ft bungalow with tiny kitchen, bad plumbing and undersized circuits
3.   So they overpay for the lot and put up 4,000 square ft McMansion costing a fortune

What I would like to know is who is unhappy in this deal

1.   Not the person who got overpaid for the lot – now he is thinking about putting up a McMansion
2.   Not the Mcmansion owners – they are happy as a clam
3.   Not the city – property tax revenue just went up
4.   Not the McMansion's neighbor – he is now thinking about selling his overpriced lot for a teardown

I have a business friend who just sold a close in lot in another large city for $700,000 – his old ranch will be torn down to build a super McMansion. My friend is not unhappy and neither are his neighbors who already have McMansions.
I just don't get what is not to like.

I may have grown up in one of those old bungalows in Tulsa but I can assure you I wouldn't want to live in one now. Grow up Tulsa.

[Renaissance]

This is a great question.  I live in Lakewood Heights in Dallas, which is ground zero of the teardown-for-McMansion syndrome in that town.  

Who is unhappy about it?  Folks with aesthetic sensibility regarding the unity and cohesiveness of the neighborhood architecture.  The reason everyone gets upset about these monstrosities is that they are UGLY.  There's no way around ugly architecture that doesn't fit in with the fabric of the neighborhood.

This isn't tragic, but it is something to complain about.  And in my book, the complaints are legitimate.  I'll take some pictures if I have time.

[bigdtottown]

Hey Floyd, I'm a little west of you in University Park and we are seeing the same thing on a frantic pace.  Hardly a week goes by that there's not another tear down but with lots going for insane amounts, it's not surprising.  Some of the houses really look out of place but UP recently implemented rules that say a house can't be more than 75% of the lot width, which is some help.  Any stricter and you are fighting a losing battle.
We lived in Midtown (25th and Columbia) in Tulsa for 2 years and I saw some infilling but nothing that looked really out of scale.  Where are the "McMansions" being built in Tulsa?  Some areas get designated Conservation Districts (M Streets here for example) and that helps quite a bit.

[Renaissance]

University Park is a great neighborhood.  Reminds me of Maple Ridge.  I agree: I'm also curious where the worst teardown building is occuring in Tulsa.  

To reply further to the original poster: I don't know what "large cities" you've observed, but in Dallas, the McMansion craze is developer driven, rather than owner-builder driven.  The result of this is twofold:  First, the developers tend to employ the same home architects over and over again, so that they get the high square footage, but also the same ugly garage frontage, tacky stonework, and totally out of proportion feel.  Second, there is a glut of these homes sitting vacant as a result of exuberant building.  There is a newly constructed 4000 sq ft McMonstrosity next to my 1800 sq ft bungalow that has been on the market for over 120 days.  The price has already dropped once by 10%.  I will be surprised if the builder gets any more than cost for his ill-conceived, ill-designed project.  The upside is that we don't have to worry about making extra noise on the weekends, because there are no neighbors next door to complain!

Here's an article in the Dallas Morning News that describes the phenomenon:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/classifieds/news/homecenter/realestate/stories/class020307dnbusteardowns.530fe8e5.html

quote: A building boom in teardown homes has left the Dallas area with a growing inventory of unsold new homes in older neighborhoods.  

The stewards of Tulsa neighborhoods should be on watch: they're next.

[waterboy]

Disgusting. The picture should be shown to as many current residents of old neighborhoods as possible. I had no intention of joining the midtown preservation group but after reading the moronic drivel the thinly disguised infill builders are posting, I'm thinking again.

[OKC_Shane]

The city of Nichols Hills, known for its older mansions anwyay, has placed a moratorium on all new construction until it can decide what to about this very problem.

To those who detest McMansions however... Is there any way that someone can build a new mansion without it being deemed derogatorily as a "Mc" Mansion? Do large homes have a mandatory aging period before they become acceptable?

[booWorld]

I'm considering the tear down option for my house near downtown Tulsa because it has so many problems.  According to my research, my house was built in 1919 or 1920.  The oldest house on the street was built in the 1880s, but most of the other houses and apartments were built in the 1920s.

A newly planned house would work well on my lot.  The neighborhood has a cohesiveness which could be ruined by insensitive infill, but of course any infill of mine would respect the context of the area.

[TheArtist]

Wish I had kept this photo I found of a large infill home next to a small older home. It was actually of a great example of what good infill can look like. The home was the same style as the one next to it, bungalow actually. It was larger but not out of scale. They broke up the wall planes of the large structure to make it not look too big. The neighborhood still had its same feel, better I would say. The property values probably went up just as much, or more. There is a "kinder gentler" way to do infill that benefits everyone, keeps the character, and improves an area without seeing jarring examples like the one above.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by OKC_Shane

The city of Nichols Hills, known for its older mansions anwyay, has placed a moratorium on all new construction until it can decide what to about this very problem.

To those who detest McMansions however... Is there any way that someone can build a new mansion without it being deemed derogatorily as a "Mc" Mansion? Do large homes have a mandatory aging period before they become acceptable?

While everyone has their own definition of what is a "McMansion", IMO, it does not apply to every large, new house.  As the name suggests, it refers to houses that are mass-produced and cheaply built.  You go to McDonalds to get filled up quickly & cheaply--no thought about long term consequences or taste.  A McMansion is all about being big and trendy, without any care to its surroundings, or its lasting value.  There are houses that are new and large that fit in very nicely.

[waterboy]

Potomac: Well, I didn't move into an old neighborhood to see it compromised with people of little imagination and voracious appetites for money. I'll rent mine to trailer trash who'll park RV's and monster trucks on the street, let their pit bulls run unchained and sell meth to your bratty children. I'll find another neighborhood to explore. Maybe Brady, maybe Reservoir or some pocket neighborhood. Once the character homes are all gone and you're left with huge slow selling stucco and brass monuments to temporary self importance, we can use them for museums or run an expressway to your next big adventure in money making.

Get real. Who needs a 3500ft home like the monster being remodeled on Peoria near 31st? Assuming you are so important as to entertain dignitaries, there isn't enough room for your limos and security so close in. Be like the truly rich and build a compound with lots of land to insulate you more effectively. Large mansions of this size are already existing in the hood if you need to impress, entertain or enjoy the old world character.

And, thanks, for helping me tap into the once buried enmity I have for shallow nouveau riche predator types who think its cool to put a chevy v-8 in a classic Jaguar. Real wealthy people seldom think about money, those without it or new to it are constantly thinking of it.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

I'm considering the tear down option for my house near downtown Tulsa because it has so many problems.  According to my research, my house was built in 1919 or 1920.  The oldest house on the street was built in the 1880s, but most of the other houses and apartments were built in the 1920s.

A newly planned house would work well on my lot.  The neighborhood has a cohesiveness which could be ruined by insensitive infill, but of course any infill of mine would respect the context of the area.

I would love to know where a house built in the 1880's exists in Tulsa. I thought the prairie house on exhibit over at Owen park was the oldest still existing residence in Tulsa and it dates to the late 1880's. Tell me more about your hood. Mine was built in 1919 and the construction is quite robust but haven't found any problems that were insurmountable.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Who needs a 3500ft home like the monster being remodeled on Peoria near 31st?

I'll jump out on the limb and say that 3500 square feet does not automatically make you a mansion.  I live with a family of three in a house of about 1400 sq feet and its TIGHT.  We have a nice sized bedroom and living room area and my sons room is fine for him.  Otherwise, our dining room is small, our kitchen tiny, our "guest bedroom/office/store crap here room is just big enough for a computer desk and aerobed,  and our single bath is just big enough to serve its purpose.

If we have another child there is NO WAY we can live in this house.  Unless I moved out computer desk into the dining room (which JUST fits our table, so we'd have to throw it away, no eating area in the kitchen either).  Or perhaps the living room (which just fits entertainment center, couch and chair... so we'd have to throw away our couch I guess).

Basically, when you take 1400 square feet and take up room with a refrigerator, a stove, some cabinets, washer, dryer, furnace, water heater and on and on... the house is not that big.  There are no basements here to store things, so storage takes up more space.  It is impossible in my house to be more than 20 feet from anyone in the house - that will be a problem when my son is a teenager.

In Iowa, where I am from, most houses have a basement and a second story.  That would put my house in the "McMansion" range you describe for usable Square Footage.  Who knew everyone in Iowa was so rich they all lived in mansions... my parents, sister, and every relative I can think of all have mansions (most costing less than 200,000 - whoohoo!).

Anyway.  I have a nice little house.  But doubling its size would give me a place for a pool table.  A second bathroom. A proper guest bedroom.  These are luxuries, but I do not think they rise to the level of mansion.

[waterboy]

I was referring to the sign advertising the 3500ft home on Peoria. I doubt that includes his basement.

My neighbor has a two story with basement and detached two car garage and comfortably raised a family with three kids. Only 2400ft. You would be surprised how much that third or fourth bedroom and second bath adds to functionality. His basement is like a huge utility room. I did the same thing with 1900ft. Regardless of how much work we've done to our properties, we are both candidates for infill.

Most people are not aware of the cost of maintaining a large home. Building it, living in it and selling it for profit are one thing, but these high rollers sell before its time to replace that huge roof, or when the water pipe heated tile floor bursts, or the exterior needs painting. The same reason they lease the Mercedes instead of buying it. The car is probably leased on the company books. Mortgage bankers will make the loans because they need to. Owners have been led to believe that these homes are investments that they get to live in. But there is little left over for maintenance, repair and improvement. A sudden change in employment/family status or flattening of their income and it all falls apart. That may be what drives the real estate market and what scares the stock market.

We're just the next investment on their horizon.

Note: there are many large appearing homes in Maple Ridge that in reality are 2500sq ft or less. They sit shallow on their lots.

[buckeye]

A builder once told me that there's quite a better margin in a McMansion than in a starter home.  He said, "The materials are more, but the labor cost isn't that much more than a small house.  I make more money on the bigger house."

Overall, it seems to me that newer construction is slapdash and flawed.  Most new houses come with the same crappy, thin-gauge brass light fixtures (for example) that Home Depot and Lowe's sell.  It's junk.

Compare also the quality of lumber.  Put a drywall screw into a modern stud, then a stud from 50 years ago or more and tell me what you'd rather live in.  Pick up a solid hardwood chair from 1920 then it's modern equivalent...  An old 2x4 weighs noticeably more than a modern one - denser wood, it seems logical that it'd be stronger as well.

Of course, most of the cheaply built houses from 'the old days' have been torn down, leaving only quality construction.  Still, lumber quality has definitely gone downhill.

[potomac13]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Potomac: Well, I didn't move into an old neighborhood to see it compromised with people of little imagination and voracious appetites for money. I'll rent mine to trailer trash who'll park RV's and monster trucks on the street, let their pit bulls run unchained and sell meth to your bratty children. I'll find another neighborhood to explore. Maybe Brady, maybe Reservoir or some pocket neighborhood. Once the character homes are all gone and you're left with huge slow selling stucco and brass monuments to temporary self importance, we can use them for museums or run an expressway to your next big adventure in money making.

Get real. Who needs a 3500ft home like the monster being remodeled on Peoria near 31st? Assuming you are so important as to entertain dignitaries, there isn't enough room for your limos and security so close in. Be like the truly rich and build a compound with lots of land to insulate you more effectively. Large mansions of this size are already existing in the hood if you need to impress, entertain or enjoy the old world character.

And, thanks, for helping me tap into the once buried enmity I have for shallow nouveau riche predator types who think its cool to put a chevy v-8 in a classic Jaguar. Real wealthy people seldom think about money, those without it or new to it are constantly thinking of it.

First of all, they may call them McMansions but mansions they are not. If you think they are mansions you need to check out Greenwich, CT or Atherton, CA.

They are typically homes for up and coming professionals – Dr's, lawyers, finance people, etc who do not want 1,500 ft2 and bad bathrooms.
Quality varies – I have lived in three of these homes in the past 7 yrs in three cities. One was average to fair quality and the other two were built well. Size was 3,400 to 3,600 ft2 (me, my wife and cat). We don't find that to be exceptionally large – who wants to be cramped?

I found your other statements ridiculous—like "voracious appetites for money" Checked Wall Street lately? Everyone has the appetite, some are just better at satisfying it than others.