River tax hike vote set for October 9

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by DwnTwnTul

As a young professional, trust me, this will NOT keep my peers in town.  If anything, this will run us out even faster.  We don't want to disturb a beautiful natural river for something such as Riverwalk in Jenks.  We want a lively downtown, interesting clubs and restaurants, NOT "cookie cutter" Jenks up and down the river.  I'd vote for quality roads in a heartbeat.  Ours currently resemble roads from third world countries.

Natural River?... Since when? Keystone dam stops and starts flows of water. Releases it at peak rate hours to generate electricity. That water doesnt get to Tulsa until late night. Then it stops during the day. (except when we have had these high rains of course) The rest of the time the river is barely navigable for the fish. This plan will keep more water in the river flowing during more times than it would naturally, even without the Keystone dam. The Sand Springs dam will be built higher to capture some of the water at night, then will release it during the day so that there will be a more constant flow. The Zink dam will be redesigned to improve the ability of fish to migrate. The other dams will be designed to  take them into consideration as well. The more regular water flow and other things will improve the habitat for many other animals too. It will not be "cookie cutter Jenks" up and down the river. Many places are designated wildlife habitats and can not be developed. The largest chunks of the river are public park space. There are only a few places designated for private development. The one area most likely to be developed, across from downtown, will not be like the Riverwalk in Jenks. The Tulsa landing proposal alone will cost 10 times both phases of the Riverwalk and is supposed to be more urban in design with living, multi level parking garages, etc.

BTW, you sound a bit too ignorant to be any YP I know. Perhaps someone needs to look into having your YP card revoked, and you might as well bring in your arm bands too. []

Live in a glass house? Thanks for quoting me from other threads, but some innacuracies you added.

(The rest of the time the river is barely navigable for the fish.) The fish do just fine. When is the last time you floated this river to guage its depth? You don't even like boats. The river is pretty close to natural operation thanks in part to the Corps. mimicking natural flows over the last century of measurement. Its not a mistake that the river always has some flow in it and continues to meander and pool. If by natural you mean flooding huge areas of the metro, well no, we don't let it do that anymore.

(The more regular water flow and other things will improve the habitat for many other animals too.) So now we're improving on nature by damming it up to create park spaces and pretty visages? Rather arrogant attitude. Someone get this guy a bible. Which particular animals are going to see improvements? The turkey buzzards that feed off the sand bars that will be covered up by a SS dam that is too large?

Besides your naive belief that Branson Landing is going to 'be all that", you now appoint yourself official determiner of whose YP and whose not calling others too ignorant to be in the club? You're over 40 buddy and on the downside of YP status.

[midtownnewbie]

Broken Arrow people are primarily against the river plan because they say it impacts Tulsa and not them...  Funny, I wonder how big Broken Arrow would be right now if Tulsa didn't exist...

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Everyone already pays a street tax.  It's called the third-penny sales tax.  That is what started third-penny in the first place.  But because it got side tracked, now they want a new street tax.

T'aint enough.  I read the last third penny request, it's still basic stuff, streets, sewer rehab, stormwater...it hasn't been sidetracked.  It's just simply not enough to keep pace with our aging infrastructure.

We built lots and lots of streets over the last 50 years...and they are wearing out.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by Bledsoe
I suggested that home and business owners near Maple Ridge or Brookside or at the 96th and Riverside commercial node could and should pay more than the remote sales tax payer in Broken Arrow or Owasso.

huh? they come and use the infrastructure but scoot back out to the burbs with less of a tax burden? i don't think so... this is exactly why we need a City Income Tax just like we had in KC...

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:Originally posted by Bledsoe
I suggested that home and business owners near Maple Ridge or Brookside or at the 96th and Riverside commercial node could and should pay more than the remote sales tax payer in Broken Arrow or Owasso.

huh? they come and use the infrastructure but scoot back out to the burbs with less of a tax burden? i don't think so... this is exactly why we need a City Income Tax just like we had in KC...

That's right, Bruno.  A maple ridger or brooksider who works downtown uses Tulsa streets, and streets in general, a lot less that a BA resident who works in downtown Tulsa.  "Remote" people should be taxed accordingly.  Gas tax, for instance.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Everyone already pays a street tax.  It's called the third-penny sales tax.  That is what started third-penny in the first place.  But because it got side tracked, now they want a new street tax.

T'aint enough.  I read the last third penny request, it's still basic stuff, streets, sewer rehab, stormwater...it hasn't been sidetracked.  It's just simply not enough to keep pace with our aging infrastructure.

We built lots and lots of streets over the last 50 years...and they are wearing out.

Of the $71M third penny budget, $40M goes to streets.  $31M goes to non-street projects.

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Budget/documents/Ordinance21254.pdf

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur
Of the $71M third penny budget, $40M goes to streets.  $31M goes to non-street projects.

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/Budget/documents/Ordinance21254.pdf

Yeah, I understand.  And those non-street projects are other essentials like stormwater, sewer, water and other capital costs.  Some have argued that rolling stock, e.g., cop cars, fire trucks, police helicopters (whirling stock?), should not have been in there, but I disagree.  At any rate, I still don't know how you can look at that stuff and say that the third penny has been "side-tracked".  It's pretty clear that this is stuff that the city needs, there's not a lot of controversy there.  Problem is, a lot of infrastructure from previous booms is wearing out, and so, since we're not booming now, we're going to have to figure out a way to pay to fix that stuff.  It's not an obscure concept.  Most of us know that older cars are more expensive to maintain.  That's why I say, "t'aint enough".

[DwnTwnTul]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by DwnTwnTul

As a young professional, trust me, this will NOT keep my peers in town.  If anything, this will run us out even faster.  We don't want to disturb a beautiful natural river for something such as Riverwalk in Jenks.  We want a lively downtown, interesting clubs and restaurants, NOT "cookie cutter" Jenks up and down the river.  I'd vote for quality roads in a heartbeat.  Ours currently resemble roads from third world countries.

Natural River?... Since when? Keystone dam stops and starts flows of water. Releases it at peak rate hours to generate electricity. That water doesnt get to Tulsa until late night. Then it stops during the day. (except when we have had these high rains of course) The rest of the time the river is barely navigable for the fish. This plan will keep more water in the river flowing during more times than it would naturally, even without the Keystone dam. The Sand Springs dam will be built higher to capture some of the water at night, then will release it during the day so that there will be a more constant flow. The Zink dam will be redesigned to improve the ability of fish to migrate. The other dams will be designed to  take them into consideration as well. The more regular water flow and other things will improve the habitat for many other animals too. It will not be "cookie cutter Jenks" up and down the river. Many places are designated wildlife habitats and can not be developed. The largest chunks of the river are public park space. There are only a few places designated for private development. The one area most likely to be developed, across from downtown, will not be like the Riverwalk in Jenks. The Tulsa landing proposal alone will cost 10 times both phases of the Riverwalk and is supposed to be more urban in design with living, multi level parking garages, etc.

BTW, you sound a bit too ignorant to be any YP I know. Perhaps someone needs to look into having your YP card revoked, and you might as well bring in your arm bands too. []

Live in a glass house? Thanks for quoting me from other threads, but some innacuracies you added.

(The rest of the time the river is barely navigable for the fish.) The fish do just fine. When is the last time you floated this river to guage its depth? You don't even like boats. The river is pretty close to natural operation thanks in part to the Corps. mimicking natural flows over the last century of measurement. Its not a mistake that the river always has some flow in it and continues to meander and pool. If by natural you mean flooding huge areas of the metro, well no, we don't let it do that anymore.

(The more regular water flow and other things will improve the habitat for many other animals too.) So now we're improving on nature by damming it up to create park spaces and pretty visages? Rather arrogant attitude. Someone get this guy a bible. Which particular animals are going to see improvements? The turkey buzzards that feed off the sand bars that will be covered up by a SS dam that is too large?

Besides your naive belief that Branson Landing is going to 'be all that", you now appoint yourself official determiner of whose YP and whose not calling others too ignorant to be in the club? You're over 40 buddy and on the downside of YP status.

Waterboy,
I could not have said it any better.  Thank you!  

The Artist,
As for revoking my YP card, I was referring to myself as an actual professional with a Masters degree who is 30 years old.  I don't believe that is something that can be revoked.

However, since you mentioned it, I did attend a meeting for us young professionals where those arm bands were distributed.  Needless to say, I was not impressed.  One person asked, "If we have all these new gathering locations and private developments, isn't that going to require more places for people to park, distracting from the natural beauty of the park as it is today?"  It was answered quite arrogantly with, "That's a byproduct we'll just have to endure."  

The point I hope to make to Tulsa County voters is that our river is beautiful in its own way as it is today.  Could it be improved?  Yes, but so could our roads, our schools, and our economy, to name a few.  All these things are in much worse shape than our river.  All of which can be improved without river enhancement.  

If my roof has a leak, I'm not going to let it get worse and instead work on my landscaping (even if "Kaiser landscaping" offers to foot a 3rd of my landscaping bill).  

PRIORITIZE TULSA!

[bokworker]

I'm not sure "Kaiser Lanscaping" will foot a third of the bill but he will offer you a sign for your yard....[]

[BASleuth]

The millions involved in the Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan and the millions involved in Taylor Palace should certainly attract those individuals who know or learn that Oklahoma has the highest level of structurally deficient bridges in the Nation.  We are number ONE in something. We have more structually deficient bridges than any other state in the nation. We'll might get them to the river, but the bridges may fail.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by bokworker

I'm not sure "Kaiser Lanscaping" will foot a third of the bill but he will offer you a sign for your yard....[]

B-OK Worker:  

Will you have to actually WAIT for the Kaiser River Tax sign?

Or, will it perchance just miraculously APPEAR in your yard, as if by magic??

Opt-out job ejection switch set to ON?


[:O]

[bokworker]

Hell FB, I have volunteered to chair the "River Tax Sign in Every BOk Lemming's Yard" campaign...

Shall I PM you if I end up with a couple of extras from "former" employees?

[Hometown]

For anyone that missed it, Coburn was quoted in today's paper as saying he would not support the bill Inhofe is pushing that contains federal money for the river.

God save us from Coburn.  So bad he makes Inhofe look good.

[Ed W]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper


huh? they come and use the infrastructure but scoot back out to the burbs with less of a tax burden? i don't think so... this is exactly why we need a City Income Tax just like we had in KC...

Wait a minute...I'm trying to remember the last time Tulsa voters agreed to raise their sales taxes in order to build some recreational facility in Owasso that would primarily benefit Owasso's businesses and people.  The answer to that would be - never.  

I think a new river project would clearly be beneficial to the city of Tulsa, but it's not quite clear how that project would improve business or property values in, say, Collinsville.  

And can anyone imagine saying, "Hey, honey, let's go for a bike ride along the river, then load them on the truck, drive to Owasso for dinner, and then go home to south Tulsa!"

This project's beneficial effects for suburban communities is largely imaginary.

[Double A]

I will be voting no because of Smalligo's devious amendment crowning John Selph the river fuhrer and the fact that they are wasting $176,000 dollars on a special election instead of waiting a few months to put it on the ballot when the presidential primary is held in February.