Downtown Wal-Mart

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

It was already mentioned in a TW article a few months back, that the design plan will be ugly, and suburban.  Their solution to drifters and hobos is to surround the giant surface parking lot with black fencing.  Also the plan for the apartments.  Look at the housing for TU along 11th street they just built (complete with black metal fence) and you have a pretty good idea of what kind of housing they probably want to put in the Walmart development.

I would imagine the fencing would be in the spirit of anti-pedestrian design, because people without cars must be up to no good.

Go back through the articles, they detailed the "surface parking surrounded by black metal fence" plan a while back.

Yes it is a shame. They could have arranged and designed the proposed development to be a loooot better.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

So? If they are a pain for the Wal-Mart, so what? If they run off the shoppers. They run off the Wal-Mart. I cant quite tell if your for Wal-Mart or against them with this.

Drive out to the "big box" at Admiral and Memorial at say 8:30 on a Friday evening.......

Park your fine automobile rigt in the light abd tell me the sensations you experience during your trip to the store and getting back to your car.

That is the same panorama the people that visit Downtown Wally will have. The proximity to the "strip joint" will of course be different..
Ours will be the "Newly remodeled Bookstore and Movie Arcade"

Oh Yeah... I'm for Wally...

Bring on the Slingers and their twenty Pee Wees.........

[}:)]

I have been to that Wal-Mart. Dont know what "sensations" you are talking about other than the sinking feeling that occasionally my thoughts and attitudes are that of a spoiled, extremely fortunate, donkey and that I should use more of my time to help people and help the world become a better place. Is that the feeling you are talking about?

Well Mister Artist get ready to feel oh so fortunate every time you drive be the "Ghetto" that Mister Seay is creating...

[Double A]

Maria Barnes is selling the soul of Tulsa and the Arvest Council Oak park bribe doesn't make it alright. Don Walker's greasy fingerprints are all over this deal.

[carltonplace]

Where do you get that Maria is for this development? I've spoken to her and she is for a downtown grocery store, but not in favor of this development as proposed.

This is her written response to me:

Good to hear from you and thank you for contacting me about the proposed downtown Wal-Mart located between Frankfort Avenue and U.S. 75 between Fourth and Sixth Streets.



First, let me start by stating that the article in the Tulsa World dated August 22, 2007, and titled "Some voice concerns about downtown Wal-Mart," inferred that I thought a downtown Wal-Mart would be beneficial to the area.  The actual quotes that I provided the reporter were as follows:



"Downtown needs a grocery store to become a vibrant area again with both pedestrian and auto traffic, especially after 5:00 when business closes."



"As soon as I know something about the development, I'll make every effort to inform my constituents on this development."



With that being said, I would like to reiterate that I have not and will not support a proposed Wal-Mart downtown, but I do support a grocery store.  As I have always stated, I respect and support the wishes of the constituents within Council District 4.



Again, thank you for contacting me regarding the proposed Wal-Mart.  I will make every effort to keep you informed regarding this development.



Sincerely,

Councilor Maria Barnes

Council District 4

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

So? If they are a pain for the Wal-Mart, so what? If they run off the shoppers. They run off the Wal-Mart. I cant quite tell if your for Wal-Mart or against them with this.

I don't think they'll run off the shoppers or the Wal-Mart, as the Admiral and Memorial location should prove to you.  I think the point Rico is making is that we will be creating an undesirable magnet downtown...one that probably won't go away, only feed off itself.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

So? If they are a pain for the Wal-Mart, so what? If they run off the shoppers. They run off the Wal-Mart. I cant quite tell if your for Wal-Mart or against them with this.

I don't think they'll run off the shoppers or the Wal-Mart, as the Admiral and Memorial location should prove to you.  I think the point Rico is making is that we will be creating an undesirable magnet downtown...one that probably won't go away, only feed off itself.

Exactly... It will be the first "domino" of an overall path to undesirable development... Once it begins IMHO it will have a negative effect on all.

[cannon_fodder]

For sure we need to keep the string of positive developments downtown.  Like then... wait, no one has built a new building downtown in a decade.  Syaing that Wal-Marts attract trash is ridiculous.  Any large scale development downtown will draw all kinds of people.  If a Neiman Marcus went in there would be bums in the parking lot...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603


I don't think they'll run off the shoppers or the Wal-Mart, as the Admiral and Memorial location should prove to you.  I think the point Rico is making is that we will be creating an undesirable magnet downtown...one that probably won't go away, only feed off itself.

I shop at the Admiral and Memorial location approx 2-3 times per month, usually later at night because it's open 24 hrs and more convenient traffic-wise than the WalMart around 71st and Memorial.

It's a SHAME when someone uses a tragic crime to stereotype WalMart shoppers and an entire area of town as "ghetto" (those robbers asked for assistance with their car as a ruse to lure their victims).  I've NEVER felt unsafe in that parking lot.  But yes, I'll think twice next time if somebody asks me to help give 'em a jump start late at night...

There's also a WalMart in Claremore... if a WalMart is opened in downtown Tulsa, will it turn that area into another Claremore?!?  I don't think so.  Will the so-called "undesirables" shopping at the WalMart at Admiral and Memorial start shopping at a WalMart if one is opened inside the IDL?  Why should they?

Oh, and since its become imperative we build a brand new downtown Tulsa ballpark because we can't allow the Drillers to move to Jenks, let's take a closer look at the cities in Tulsa's division of the Texas League next year... Springfield, MO has a 100% privately funded stadium... Little Rock has a new stadium for the Arkansas Travelers located across the river in North Little Rock).... and, drumroll please...... the new NW Arkansas Naturals will play their first season next year in a new ballpark in Springdale, Arkansas, home of Tyson and down the road from the home of Walmart's "evil empire," Bentonville.... they'll play at the brand new Arvest Ballpark....

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aid=99512.54928.111641

I mean, it could be worse... at least it's not a movie studio or a mixed-use soccer stadium development or a Home Depot we're talking about here.... oh, wait... []

[PonderInc]

Downtown Tulsa needs a grocery store.  However, the most inappropriate development I could imagine for downtown would be a suburban-sized superwalmart.

Asking for an urban grocery store and getting a superwalmart is like asking for a glass of water and getting Hurricane Katrina.  The scale is not just wrong, it would be devestating...a major setback to everyone working towards a cool, human-scaled, walkable, urban environment.

Downtown Tulsa will succeed (unless we destroy it first) because it's unique.  It has something found nowhere else in the region.  Cool old buildings, a sense of history, and world-famoous art deco architecture.  There is no such beast in Owasso, or BA, or Springfield, MO, or Wichita, KS or Plano, TX.  (All of these places have superwalmarts, however...)

Tulsa needs to do two things: 1) stop tearing down old buildings.  2) Find a way to encourage and support (with real financial incentives and by cutting red tape) those people who are doing the right kind of development downtown.  (Think Blue Dome, Brady, and the "little guys" in the East End.)

This will bring in more people, more residents, and more shoppers to sustain an urban grocery store.  And all the other stores that could operate alongside an urban store.  

A superwalmart is a place people drive to...and then drive away from.  It's not going to support/enhance dozens of nearby shops/merchants...partly because nothing but asphalt (surface parking) will be nearby.

Let's leave the walmarts to the burbs, where they belong.

[carltonplace]

ditto

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Tulsa needs to do two things: 1) stop tearing down old buildings.  2) Find a way to encourage and support (with real financial incentives and by cutting red tape) those people who are doing the right kind of development downtown.  (Think Blue Dome, Brady, and the "little guys" in the East End.)

I'll add a third:

3)  Stop closing and vacating public streets and alleys.

Superblocks create the opportunities for these types of suburban developments.  They don't belong downtown.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
.... the new NW Arkansas Naturals will play their first season next year in a new ballpark in Springdale, Arkansas,

That is the team that Wichita lost when city and county leaders failed to step forward. I am afraid that Tulsa could also lose their team just as easily.

There are only 30 major league teams and thus only 30 AAA and 30 AA (what Tulsa is) teams allowed. Some cities like Chicago, LA and New York have more than one team which leaves the remaining markets competing which each other. Springdale and Springfield neither had a team three years ago and both went out and put together packages to attract owners.  

I am afraid of the Drillers moving to Jenks, but I am just as afraid of them moving completely away from here.

[USRufnex]

Half of downtown Tulsa is surface parking.  A WalMart would be an improvement...

NOBODY WOULD HAVE RATHER HAD GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT'S INITIAL PLANS SUCCEED THAN ME.

But the people whining and moaning over the evils of superblocks consistently demonize  everything they don't like aesthetically...

It will be perfectly appropriate to have a Walmart down the street from the Home Depot in downtown Tulsa and a mixed-use development anchored by a Walmart will be a huge improvement over what is there now...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
.... the new NW Arkansas Naturals will play their first season next year in a new ballpark in Springdale, Arkansas,

That is the team that Wichita lost when city and county leaders failed to step forward. I am afraid that Tulsa could also lose their team just as easily.

There are only 30 major league teams and thus only 30 AAA and 30 AA (what Tulsa is) teams allowed. Some cities like Chicago, LA and New York have more than one team which leaves the remaining markets competing which each other. Springdale and Springfield neither had a team three years ago and both went out and put together packages to attract owners.  

I am afraid of the Drillers moving to Jenks, but I am just as afraid of them moving completely away from here.

The Wichita Wranglers played at a ballpark that is nearly fifty years older than Driller Park.... their facility had one of the worst fields in baseball (artificial turf infield/grass outfield).  Wichita also had very little fan support because most of the city's baseball fans are more interested in paying to watch Wichita State's contending college baseball team.

The people I talk to don't seem to understand why the Drillers can't just stay at the fairgrounds... a downtown ballpark would be nice, but if the only choice is between a publicly funded ballpark downtown, and a privately financed ballpark in Jenks, guess which is going to be more popular?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

For sure we need to keep the string of positive developments downtown.  Like then... wait, no one has built a new building downtown in a decade.  Syaing that Wal-Marts attract trash is ridiculous.  Any large scale development downtown will draw all kinds of people.  If a Neiman Marcus went in there would be bums in the parking lot...

You know, CF, "positive developments" do not have to include "new buildings" or "parking lots".  There have been blocks and blocks of rehabilitations...dozens of businesses.

The differences between the 'Plains Commercial' revitalization and suburban big box development are more than just "aesthetic", as Rufnex asserts.  

These kinds of development are fundamentally opposite and incompatible with one another. Big box development is designed for cars, not people.  Crossing the entire length of an ocean-sized parking lot is a barrier:  long, hot, windy, and boring hikes interrupted by the occasional terror of an Expedition barreling down on you; no sidewalks; no shade.  Developers don't provide meaningful and attractive pedestrian routes, and nobody wants to compete with the cars for longer than we have to, so we drive from one end of the strip mall to the other.  Crazy.

Also, suburban commercial is built cheaply.  In the last five decades, commercial real estate has been commoditized and packaged so that it can compete with other investments, like GE stock and pork bellies.  No investor wants to be bogged down in a real estate deal that doesn't break even for twenty years.  And nobody wants to commit to a geographic location for that long; sprawl moves too rapidly.  So, the "solution" is to build a throwaway structure that cashes out in less than a decade.  After that, who give a crap; let it "go dark".

Despite rumors, downtown is not dead.  Downtown is more "permanent" than any property in the region.  And so, historically and today, people are willing to invest more, adopt a long-term business plan, and think generationally.  If you are going after the long dollar, then allowing throwaway structures in the area is tantamount to cheating.

It's two different models.  The physical, economic, and psychological differences between traditional downtown development and suburban, big box, are real, and significant.  They don't mix well on many levels.  To say that this is about "aesthetics" is pretty unfair to the people that come downtown for something different, or the guy that sticks his neck out in order to provide it.