Downtown Wal-Mart

[carltonplace]

Damn CL, I've never heard it stated any better than that. Thank you.

[Chicken Little]

It honks me off when people try to say that smart growth is superficial snobbery.  It's not.  There are fundamental differences in the way these places are built and used, and they lead to entirely different lifestyles.  

Suburbia requires it's own dogmatic assumptions:  that people won't walk more than 300 feet; that people have to see empty parking spaces from the main road or they won't stop and shop; that "place" doesn't matter.  Car-culture is mainstream, but that doesn't make it smart.  Drowning witches was mainstream at one time, so was swimming in petticoats, fighting in rows, and leeching.

If you ask me, it's the "pragmatic" car people that are being a little smug.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Damn CL, I've never heard it stated any better than that. Thank you.

Yeah, it may have been the fact that Rufnex's Hypnotoad was on the screen at the same time, but CL put it in quite a convincing fashion.

I've heard it spun in the opposite way though.  People saying "Don't worry about permanently changing downtown, because these cheap structures will be gone 10 or 20 years from now, no biggie"

Problem being, Ive never seen an old empty Walmart shell turn into anything useful OR be demolished.  Its those pesky no-compete contracts and the fact that no one needs a 180,000 square foot barber shop.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Damn CL, I've never heard it stated any better than that. Thank you.

Yeah, it may have been the fact that Rufnex's Hypnotoad was on the screen at the same time, but CL put it in quite a convincing fashion.

I've heard it spun in the opposite way though.  People saying "Don't worry about permanently changing downtown, because these cheap structures will be gone 10 or 20 years from now, no biggie"

Problem being, Ive never seen an old empty Walmart shell turn into anything useful OR be demolished.  Its those pesky no-compete contracts and the fact that no one needs a 180,000 square foot barber shop.

Some cities actually require big boxes to be torn down a few months after they go dark.  Tulsa is not one of those cities. We're at the opposite end of the spectrum.  Wal-Mart retains control of their empty stores even though they don't technically own them.  Wal-Mart creates blight in order to manipulate the retail landscape.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Damn CL, I've never heard it stated any better than that. Thank you.

Yeah, it may have been the fact that Rufnex's Hypnotoad was on the screen at the same time, but CL put it in quite a convincing fashion.

I've heard it spun in the opposite way though.  People saying "Don't worry about permanently changing downtown, because these cheap structures will be gone 10 or 20 years from now, no biggie"

Problem being, Ive never seen an old empty Walmart shell turn into anything useful OR be demolished.  Its those pesky no-compete contracts and the fact that no one needs a 180,000 square foot barber shop.

Some cities actually require big boxes to be torn down a few months after they go dark.  Tulsa is not one of those cities. We're at the opposite end of the spectrum.  Wal-Mart retains control of their empty stores even though they don't technically own them.  Wal-Mart creates blight in order to manipulate the retail landscape.

And what kind of drastic revolution would we have to go through here to get such a law passed?  I'm not an anti-walmart guy, but the particular practice of building a store, and then abandoning it to ensure that intersection is dead for retail really annoys me.  And I'm pretty sure the Tulsa market is like some sort of testing grounds for Wal-mart, and they are currently testing the "Complete and utter market takeover" strategy to see how it works here.  21st & Yale NH Market, 66th & Memorial, 111th & Memorial, the one coming soon in Glenpool, this downtown one, rumors of one in the Town West center at 49th W. Ave. (That and the Glenpool one are aimed at sucking the life out of Tulsa Hills no doubt) - They're probably thinking of other places to cram more Neighborhood markets in midtown somewhere.  We are being conquered.

[carltonplace]

We could let the Wal*Mart go in and then wait it out 10 years until it becomes "Heavenly Pizza", or becomes the home base for some cult of goat fanatics or sits empty until it is condmened and demolished.

- Or

We could do the right thing and demand long term development that has potential beyond its currently proposed use. The buildings on Cherry Street, SOBO and in BrookSide are great examples. Grocery Store becomes Music Store becomes coffee shop and Bistro and on and on. Wal*Mart doesn't have to be out of the question, they just need to "build to suit".

[YoungTulsan]

What sucks is that from my vantage point, this is already a done deal.  Unless someone takes a decisive stand, it looks as if the deal has already been inked.  The design is already complete.  We get a suburban walmart with a red brick/ stucco facade to BS about being "Urban".  We get a giant surface lot surrounded by black metal fence.  Who will have the balls to stand up to the developer and say we are not going to allow this to proceed as planned?

[carltonplace]

That would be the City Council when the developer comes asking for TIF support.

[booWorld]

Tulsans have allowed for this type of big-box super-block situation by electing and re-electing officials who cede public streets and alleys to private owners.

The City Council will have almost no say except for the consideration of a TIF district.  I think the Council will whimp out and approve the developer's every request.  I hope they prove me wrong.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

Tulsans have allowed for this type of big-box super-block situation by electing and re-electing officials who cede public streets and alleys to private owners.

The City Council will have almost no say except for the consideration of a TIF district.  I think the Council will whimp out and approve the developer's every request.  I hope they prove me wrong.

Boo... Is there even a remote chance that the City, by whatever means, could impose "eminent domain" over the streets portion of this property...?

A very good argument could be made for this...IMO

With the Arena and other development... There will be a greater need for the common use of these streets.

What do you think..?

[booWorld]

^ Possibly, but I'm not sure.  Perhaps a real estate attorney could comment here.

There most likely are utility easments in place.  If so, the City could enforce those, I imagine.

IMO, any consideration of TIF ought to require re-dedication of the streets to the public for public use.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

^ Possibly, but I'm not sure.  Perhaps a real estate attorney could comment here.

There most likely are utility easments in place.  If so, the City could enforce those, I imagine.

IMO, any consideration of TIF ought to require re-dedication of the streets to the public for public use.

Agreed... I read an article the other day... Rather long.

"Shopping for Subsidies:
How WalMart uses Taxpayer Money to
Finance its Never Ending Growth"

I was amazed that they had been so successful in
making Cities believe they are the cure all for economies..
They received a 2.8 Million TIF in Sand Springs for the "Supercenter" on Hwy. 97...

I still feel that if WalMart is set on having a TIF in Tulsa... They should be directed to take up residence at Pine and Peoria.

[booWorld]

^ Perhaps at least five of the Councilors will have the guts to turn down a request for TIF.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

It honks me off when people try to say that smart growth is superficial snobbery.  It's not.  There are fundamental differences in the way these places are built and used, and they lead to entirely different lifestyles.  

Suburbia requires it's own dogmatic assumptions:  that people won't walk more than 300 feet; that people have to see empty parking spaces from the main road or they won't stop and shop; that "place" doesn't matter.  Car-culture is mainstream, but that doesn't make it smart.  Drowning witches was mainstream at one time, so was swimming in petticoats, fighting in rows, and leeching.

If you ask me, it's the "pragmatic" car people that are being a little smug.

I believe there will be walkable urbanity in Jenks before there is walkable urbanity in downtown Tulsa.

Per usual, you've resorted to suburban stereotypes.  My area of east Tulsa has more urban density than downtown.

Maybe if downtown-centric Tulsans tore down their "Tower of Babel" (aka the BOk Tower) there'd be enough demand in downtown Tulsa for the mixed-use walkable urban density you all claim to seek...

[YoungTulsan]

^ So your point would be that Just as big box spread out sprawl is bad for the creation of a walkable community that serves everyones needs, a 52-story tower that consolidate everything into one address is equally harmful to the balance of a walkable community?

It requires some consideration...