Downtown Wal-Mart

[TheArtist]

That is actually a good point. Unless you can be like NY City or Chicago its harder to build a walkable community with a large tower like that and its parking garages. Versus having a street lined with buildings that are around 6 stories with retail on the ground floors. Doesnt have to be that way, the Philtower is a great example of a taller mixed use building but the BOK and the things around it were built with a different ethos. No use in crying over spilt milk in this case though. It certainly adds to the skyline and completes our biggest skyscraper canyon lol. lets just hope for and push for new development in downtown to be more liveable, mixed use and pedestrian friendly. I actually like the location of the arena for instance. It has its back towards a lot of other un-pedestrian friendly buildings. Nobody wants to walk past the prison, large parking garages, convention center, post office, etc. Yet the arenas main entrance and exit are facing towards the more walkable areas of downtown. Especially if properties like the Towerview are redeveloped properly to link that side to the pedestrian areas of downtown.  Too bad the wal-mart couldnt be in that other corner of downtown with the other "pedestrian unfriendly" buildings instead of in a potentially pedestrian friendly area. Better to have all the pedestrian unfriendly buildings off in one corner rather than having them create huge gaps all over downtown.

[booWorld]

That particular 52-story was made possible by the closing and vacating of Boston Avenue for yet another super-block downtown.

Superblocks are urban destroyers.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

That is actually a good point. Unless you can be like NY City or Chicago its harder to build a walkable community with a large tower like that and its parking garages. Versus having a street lined with buildings that are around 6 stories with retail on the ground floors. Doesnt have to be that way, the Philtower is a great example of a taller mixed use building but the BOK and the things around it were built with a different ethos. No use in crying over spilt milk in this case though. It certainly adds to the skyline and completes our biggest skyscraper canyon lol. lets just hope for and push for new development in downtown to be more liveable, mixed use and pedestrian friendly. I actually like the location of the arena for instance. It has its back towards a lot of other un-pedestrian friendly buildings. Nobody wants to walk past the prison, large parking garages, convention center, post office, etc. Yet the arenas main entrance and exit are facing towards the more walkable areas of downtown. Especially if properties like the Towerview are redeveloped properly to link that side to the pedestrian areas of downtown.  Too bad the wal-mart couldnt be in that other corner of downtown with the other "pedestrian unfriendly" buildings instead of in a potentially pedestrian friendly area. Better to have all the pedestrian unfriendly buildings off in one corner rather than having them create huge gaps all over downtown.

Yep, the six stories thing, that there would be the Greenwich Village "ideal" neighborhood described by Jane Jacobs.  I'm pretty flexible.  I know Greenwich Village, and I actually think the East Village is better.  The buildings are four to six stories, but the streets and sidewalks are narrower and crowded with trashcans, trees, dogs, people, and parked cars.  It seems less sterile and more alive.  I'm not into the "picture perfect" feel that some streets in the Village convey, I like the jammed-up, untidy, stuff.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Where do you get that Maria is for this development? I've spoken to her and she is for a downtown grocery store, but not in favor of this development as proposed.

This is her written response to me:

Good to hear from you and thank you for contacting me about the proposed downtown Wal-Mart located between Frankfort Avenue and U.S. 75 between Fourth and Sixth Streets.



First, let me start by stating that the article in the Tulsa World dated August 22, 2007, and titled "Some voice concerns about downtown Wal-Mart," inferred that I thought a downtown Wal-Mart would be beneficial to the area.  The actual quotes that I provided the reporter were as follows:



"Downtown needs a grocery store to become a vibrant area again with both pedestrian and auto traffic, especially after 5:00 when business closes."



"As soon as I know something about the development, I'll make every effort to inform my constituents on this development."



With that being said, I would like to reiterate that I have not and will not support a proposed Wal-Mart downtown, but I do support a grocery store.  As I have always stated, I respect and support the wishes of the constituents within Council District 4.



Again, thank you for contacting me regarding the proposed Wal-Mart.  I will make every effort to keep you informed regarding this development.



Sincerely,

Councilor Maria Barnes

Council District 4

When Maria makes a statement like this about a downtown Wal-Mart in the paper, that will carry some weight, IMO. This means nothing to me . She can't have it both ways. It's just like how she cries that checking immigration status at the jail and HB 1804 are racist, yet gives a silent endorsement to the rehire of one of Tulsa's most racially divisive Police Chiefs? Error, does not compute. That just don't jive. I don't trust Maria any more.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Double A When Maria makes a statement like this about a downtown Wal-Mart in the paper, that will carry some weight, IMO. This means nothing to me . She can't have it both ways. It's just like how she cries that checking immigration status at the jail and HB 1804 are racist, yet gives a silent endorsement to the rehire of one of Tulsa's most racially divisive Police Chiefs? Error, does not compute. That just don't jive. I don't trust Maria any more.

So, an actual letter from a Councilor means nothing to you.  You only trust things that are printed in the Tulsa World?  That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, here's a quote from you when the Mayor appointed Palmer:

quote:Palmer is a good choice, he wasn't her first choice or Bill Wells either, for that matter. I am sure the FOP will support Palmer, but if you think this will make the at-will issue will go away, you've got another thing coming. This issue will be Kathy Taylor's Bell's.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7442&whichpage=1

What made you change your mind?  If he was Tulsa's most racially divisive police chief, shouldn't you have know that?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

By the way, here's a quote from you...

PWN3D!

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by Double A When Maria makes a statement like this about a downtown Wal-Mart in the paper, that will carry some weight, IMO. This means nothing to me . She can't have it both ways. It's just like how she cries that checking immigration status at the jail and HB 1804 are racist, yet gives a silent endorsement to the rehire of one of Tulsa's most racially divisive Police Chiefs? Error, does not compute. That just don't jive. I don't trust Maria any more.

So, an actual letter from a Councilor means nothing to you.  You only trust things that are printed in the Tulsa World?  That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, here's a quote from you when the Mayor appointed Palmer:

quote:Palmer is a good choice, he wasn't her first choice or Bill Wells either, for that matter. I am sure the FOP will support Palmer, but if you think this will make the at-will issue will go away, you've got another thing coming. This issue will be Kathy Taylor's Bell's.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7442&whichpage=1

What made you change your mind?  If he was Tulsa's most racially divisive police chief, shouldn't you have know that?

Uh, not that I'm questioning CP's credibility but who is to say that is an actual letter from the Councilor? When she holds a press conference and I hear the statements opposing a downtown Wal-Mart made in that letter come out of her mouth, that will carry weight with me. I did go on to clarify later in that thread that I do not support the Palmer appointment. The point I was trying to make was it is a good political strategy in regards to the FOP, because it would placate a certain faction of the membership who support Palmer to take some of the heat out of the fury about going At-will and outside the force in the Police Chief selection. I did know about Palmer BTW, that's just one of many reasons I oppose his appointment. A little reading comprehension goes a long way. Maria needs to get both feet firmly planted on one side of the fence or the other to have any credibility as far as I am concerned.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by Double A When Maria makes a statement like this about a downtown Wal-Mart in the paper, that will carry some weight, IMO. This means nothing to me . She can't have it both ways. It's just like how she cries that checking immigration status at the jail and HB 1804 are racist, yet gives a silent endorsement to the rehire of one of Tulsa's most racially divisive Police Chiefs? Error, does not compute. That just don't jive. I don't trust Maria any more.

So, an actual letter from a Councilor means nothing to you.  You only trust things that are printed in the Tulsa World?  That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, here's a quote from you when the Mayor appointed Palmer:

quote:Palmer is a good choice, he wasn't her first choice or Bill Wells either, for that matter. I am sure the FOP will support Palmer, but if you think this will make the at-will issue will go away, you've got another thing coming. This issue will be Kathy Taylor's Bell's.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7442&whichpage=1

What made you change your mind?  If he was Tulsa's most racially divisive police chief, shouldn't you have know that?

Uh, not that I'm questioning CP's credibility but who is to say that is an actual letter from the Councilor? When she holds a press conference and I hear the statements opposing a downtown Wal-Mart made in that letter come out of her mouth, that will carry weight with me. I did go on to clarify later in that thread that I do not support the Palmer appointment. The point I was trying to make was it is a good political strategy in regards to the FOP, because it would placate a certain faction of the membership who support Palmer to take some of the heat out of the fury about going At-will and outside the force in the Police Chief selection. I did know about Palmer BTW, that's just one of many reasons I oppose his appointment. A little reading comprehension goes a long way. Maria needs to get both feet firmly planted on one side of the fence or the other to have any credibility as far as I am concerned.

I know of several people who received the same letter from Councilor Barnes.  Perhaps they are all in a vast conspiracy to convince you that she doesn't support Walmart, when she secretly does?  I know you prefer your politicians to grandstand on every little issue, to rant and rave in front of the media, but that's not Councilor Barnes's style.  You must have known that when you worked on her campaign--it's one of the reasons I support her.

As for my reading comprehenion, maybe the problem is actually the writer.  I've never known you not to attack the Mayor when you have a chance.  If you knew that "Palmer is the most racially divisive police chief," why would you have said "Palmer is a good choice"?  It wasn't until quite a bit later in the thread that you said you didn't support him.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by Double A


Uh, not that I'm questioning CP's credibility but who is to say that is an actual letter from the Councilor? When she holds a press conference and I hear the statements opposing a downtown Wal-Mart made in that letter come out of her mouth, that will carry weight with me.

I can PM the email conversation we had if you're interested.

[Double A]

Maria's style is to ride the fence. Maria can ride the fence all she wants, don't expect me to respect that or refrain from criticizing it. The fact that she turns a blind eye to charter violations does not help her case or yours for that matter. Maria should do everyone a favor to end the speculation by having the intestinal fortitude and leadership to clearly define exactly where she stands on the issues, instead of playing the plausible deniability game. Better yet, she should have the guts to defend herself instead of sending you and CP. When it comes time to vote on this she'll probably run through a laundry list of reasons to vote against it, right before she votes for it. That's her style.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

^ So your point would be that Just as big box spread out sprawl is bad for the creation of a walkable community that serves everyones needs, a 52-story tower that consolidate everything into one address is equally harmful to the balance of a walkable community?

It requires some consideration...

Actually my point would run a little deeper than that... nobody knows the future... and that includes even the most intellectually wise urban planners...

I was a kid at the time so I'm sure I may not be completely accurate in my memories, but the mid/late 70s and early 80s were heady times to be a Tulsan...

Tulsa was "America's Most Beautiful City" and the "Oil Capital of the World."  So, in plans befitting an "Oil Capital of the World," a 50% scale building that would replicate one of the World Trade Center towers was built in downtown.  There was a big beautiful downtown mall complete with an ice-rink... a performing arts center, high-end hotels/restaurants like the Adams Mark and the Magic Pan (mmm, Tulsa quiche!)...

...my Tulsa Roughnecks were busy playing the New York Cosmos in a 1979 playoff game in front of 76,000 fans at Giant Stadium (on a Wed nite!)... the City of Faith Hospital (now the CityPlex Towers) was being built after Oral Roberts saw a 900 ft-tall Jesus and also said God would "take him home" if he didn't get enough money to finish its construction (some of us at the time called this the Oral Roberts hostage crisis)[:O]... Tulsa Opera under Ed Purrington was gaining in stature... at one point I saw an opera with world class talent-- a Don Carlo with Tatyana Troyanos, Rosalind Plowright, Sam Ramey, Jerome Hines... still don't know how he pulled it off, even with the oil $$$...

At the time, who cared about or had heard anything negative about "superblocks"?  New York skyscrapers?  Superblocks.  The Sears Tower, John Hancock Building, etc. in Chicago?  Superblocks.  And Tulsa, as "oil capital of the world," needed a shiny new skyscraper so it could "run with the big dogs."  After all, if more and more people work downtown, and more and more people live/work here, then all of Tulsa would ultimately benifit.  Most big cities have downtown financial districts that are not residential.  Conventional wisdom dictated that people live outside the central business district, not in it...

If I had to guess, I'd say Tulsa's movers and shakers didn't want their downtown to look anything like the town of Mayberry from the Andy Griffith Show... they wanted big and bold.

It didn't work out.  So the skyline of Tulsa is deceptively big... I wonder if I'm the only one who saw the big cube downtown and thought, "look at that big, new parking garage!"  No need for surface parking here...

I wish downtown Tulsa could get a nice Lexus, but it looks like it's getting a Saturn... ain't perfect, but better than nothing...

[PonderInc]

Here's an interesting example of a big-box store going urban in downtown Denver.  I don't know if this includes any mixed-use/residential, but I include it here to show the Walmart developers an example of how to start thinking outside the (big) box.

For those of you who believe that a sprawling, suburban-style Walmart superstore is not what downtown Tulsa needs, start writing the mayor and city councilors.  Every letter that you send will help give the folks in power the ammunition they need to stand up to mis-conceived development (or, at least the TIF $$ they need to build it).  If you care enough to vent on this forum, don't forget to also write letters that actually get to the decision-makers at City Hall.

[TheArtist]

But you have to realize. If there is going to be any Wal-Mart, Target or otherwise in that area its not going to be 2 story or more with underground or structured parking, etc. That works in an area that has high traffic, is already high density, has great demographics, is often in an area of flashy new condo towers or other dense new growth. Our downtown is not like that at all. The area where the Wal-mart may go is a mostly vacant wasteland. It might as well be suburbia. A group of tall, partially empty buildings off in the background do not an urban environment make. And certainly not a reason for any company to build some flashy, very expensive, 2 story, with elevators and structured parking, etc. store. Demographically and traffic wise there is less of an economic reason to build something more expensive there than they would in a suburb. Its actually a less attractive area imo. Its absurd to think they are going to do that. Unless your whole approach is to demand that in order for it to not be built.

[PonderInc]

I know, Artist...and I'm sure that's what the developer will say.

But here's an analogy:  Let's say that you want to landscape your yard.  Right now, it's just a big, empty, flat area with dirt and some grass... but you have a vision for something great.  A vibrant, three-dimensional space full of  plants, trees, sculptures, mosaics, water features, intriguing paths and patio space, etc.  Now, let's assume that you can't afford to build it all at once.  You have to add one piece at a time over the course of years.  Do you start by filling your yard with an enormous piece of crap--ugly and poorly made--but cheap?  Is this how you get from your current state to the fulfillment your vision?

I may be a dreamer, but I think it's more practical to move slowly and deliberately than to take desperate, short-sighted actions...like giving TIF money to build something that will detract, not add to the future you want to build.  (And don't forget that Walmarts tend to vacate every 10 years or so...)

We did the Home Depot thing about 10 years ago.  How much development did it spur in the surrounding area?  Thank goodness they spared the Warehouse Market, but we essentially got a big box store with a big box parking lot for our money.  I'm glad we got an infusion of sales tax dollars, and yes, I do shop at Home Depot downtown (though I've noticed they took a hit when the Lowe's went in at 15th and Yale)...but can't we do better than this?  Did we learn anything from that experience?  Are we smarter now?

[Rico]

Originally posted by Ponder Inc.

quote:

For those of you who believe that a sprawling, suburban-style Walmart superstore is not what downtown Tulsa needs, start writing the mayor and city councilors. Every letter that you send will help give the folks in power the ammunition they need to stand up to mis-conceived development (or, at least the TIF $$ they need to build it). If you care enough to vent on this forum, don't forget to also write letters that actually get to the decision-makers at City Hall.

Write letters to The Artist as well.

He needs the motivation...



[}:)]