Downtown Wal-Mart

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Drillers

Let Jenks foot the bill for a new Drillers stadium. I would like to see the city and or OSU Tulsa build a soccer stadium downtown.

Soccer is more urban and hip than baseball anyway. [8D]

[Renaissance]

Whatever, suburb-lover.  []

Downtown Drillers.  On the Nordam site.  Himmelfarb, get Global back on the phone.  Now.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Drillers

Let Jenks foot the bill for a new Drillers stadium. I would like to see the city and or OSU Tulsa build a soccer stadium downtown.

Soccer is more urban and hip than baseball anyway. [8D]

Yeah maybe.  But we don't even have a soccer team do we?  Is soccer as popular to watch?  I couldn't tell you if where Dallas, OKC, Kansas City, or any other city's soccer stadium is, but I can definitely tell you where the baseball stadiums are - and i don't even like baseball.

We aren't wealthy and healthy enough to be quite so pie-in-the-sky.  Maybe once we establish downtown as a destination people actually want to go, then we can do soccer in addition to baseball, but i say baseball will be an easy way to bring people downtown.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Whatever, suburb-lover.  []

Downtown Drillers.  On the Nordam site.  Himmelfarb, get Global back on the phone.  Now.

^ +1

I feel the price of the property dropping.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Whatever, suburb-lover.  []

Downtown Drillers.  On the Nordam site.  Himmelfarb, get Global back on the phone.  Now.

^ +1

I feel the price of the property dropping.

^^Me, too.  Baseball belongs downtown--Drillers belong in Tulsa.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Now is the chance for everyone who thought Wal-Mart wasn't the answer to step up.  Get Reasor's to build down there, add a few specialty shops and look for a smaller general retailer.  That could be a really cool area and I hope it is.

But I am somewhat disappointed that yet another development in Tulsa will just fade away.  Getting tired of that announcement NOTHING crap.  Even if the development was not ideal.

So someone step it up please.

ps.  Wal-Mart decided not to build in a large number of locations and announced it yesterday.  Presumably because of slumping sales (really just not growing as fast, they missed their sales forecast yesterday) and shaky consumer spending in general.  So it was not a Tulsa thing.

Be carefull what you wish for.  Reasor's has been using Group Blaksley out of Owasso as a development partner and construction contractor.  I feel like I have to take a shower every-time I'm in the same room with the Blaksley group.  They are the black turtleneck and gold chain pinky-ring type.  They ooze sleaze.  Makes your skin crawl. Sheesh!

I hope Reasor cuts ties with them soon.  Makes him look bad.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Drillers

Let Jenks foot the bill for a new Drillers stadium. I would like to see the city and or OSU Tulsa build a soccer stadium downtown.

Soccer is more urban and hip than baseball anyway. [8D]

Yeah maybe.  But we don't even have a soccer team do we?  Is soccer as popular to watch?  I couldn't tell you if where Dallas, OKC, Kansas City, or any other city's soccer stadium is, but I can definitely tell you where the baseball stadiums are - and i don't even like baseball.

We aren't wealthy and healthy enough to be quite so pie-in-the-sky.  Maybe once we establish downtown as a destination people actually want to go, then we can do soccer in addition to baseball, but i say baseball will be an easy way to bring people downtown.

I wasnt seriously proposing the city go and build a soccer stadium, especially at this point there are too many other things that we could spend that money on which would make more economic sense.  However I do like to imagine that at some time or another OSU Tulsa will become a full fledged college and that the idea could be put forth that some sort of joint venture with the city would be nice. Its true that Tulsa may not at this point be able to really support a team. But if the notion were planted within OSU Tulsa to perhaps have soccer as its "thing" versus say OSU Stillwater focusing on American Football. Tulsa itself could start growing a fan base, you could start promoting the idea and familiarity of soccer to the public. TUs team is ranked 7th in the nation. I see opportunity here for people in the community to have a great sports option grown here. Just needs to be promoted more in the media, by the city, the schools, become  more familiar,etc. Then people will start to become excited about it. Its simply a matter of choosing to do so and making a bit of effort. It could be something that we grow here on our own.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I wonder if they will try to look for a different grocery store chain, though unlikely, or possibly a neighborhood market to go with the rest of the development they had planned? Or will they throw in the towel and put the property up for sale. If so perhaps Global will come back in and do something.

My feeling is that the "times have changed" and the momentum for downtown has fallen a bit in general. Especially with the focus being on the River District, the river vote, and the still unfolding drama of a possible Tulsa Landing type development. For a while, downtown was the focus of interest. Now that has been distracted and faded with all those other "goings on".

The hundreds of millions of dollars being spent on the BOK Center, downtown streets and infrastructure, Centennial Walk, downtown housing incentives, downtown police substation and the 6th & Main park indicates otherwise to me. []

I would like to think those things will make a difference, but if the economy falters, none of that will matter. We needed to do those things regardless imo to set the stage. But it seems like we have been very slow and not urgently pursuing development along the river and downtown to capture the momentum. And I am not just talking about the 2025 momentum, but the remaining momentum that the national economy had.

I have said this over and over and hate to sound panicky about it, but we have seen this happen before. Tulsa did poorly, the nation as a whole was doing well... Tulsa started to pick up, the nation started to falter. Just as things were starting to look rosy and there were big exciting plans on the books, it all fell apart as the problems in the rest of the nation started to affect what was planned in Tulsa. Then even the small gains we had made, downtown, Brookside, etc, faltered and came to naught. Shuttered back up again and we even fell further behind than we were before.

Are we seeing the same thing beginning again? Tulsa Hills may make it. But most of the retail stores in the nation have shown losses and are pulling back on their new construction. Consumers are slowing down their spending. Will the River District get started but perhaps not finished? As far behind in the development scheme of things that any potential Tulsa Landing or East End project is at this point, those are likely to be the things that get really hit by the national financial jitters. I fear that if things get worse with the rest of the nation, no matter how well things may be here, the banks and investors will get skittish and start pulling back.

It seems we get so picky and squabbly about things that we miss the window of opportunity. Always thinking things will continue as good as they have been, "Oh just wait, no need to hurry or push for the first thing that comes along" "The economy is different this time Tulsa is better it wont happen" Then "poof" it all vanishes and we are left behind once again.

Hope it doesn't happen that way this time....
But, thats not what I am seeing so far.

If the national economy continues to falter. It WILL affect Tulsa. Then its only a matter of when.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

Yeah maybe.  But we don't even have a soccer team do we?  Is soccer as popular to watch?  I couldn't tell you if where Dallas, OKC, Kansas City, or any other city's soccer stadium is, but I can definitely tell you where the baseball stadiums are - and i don't even like baseball.

We aren't wealthy and healthy enough to be quite so pie-in-the-sky.  Maybe once we establish downtown as a destination people actually want to go, then we can do soccer in addition to baseball, but i say baseball will be an easy way to bring people downtown.

Major League Soccer was a unique opportunity Tulsa had.  It was definitely not "pie-in-the sky" to think Tulsa would get its major league soccer team back sometime in the 90s... but it may very well be "pie-in-the-sky" now...

The 1978-1985 Tulsa Roughnecks were the only successful major league professional sports team in our city's history.  They routinely drew in the top 25% in league attendance (North American Soccer League) despite winning only around 50% of their games.
http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/nasl/nasl-standings.html

The 1983 Roughnecks started off slow but got hot towards the end of the season, going 17-13... getting past Ft Lauderdale and Montreal in the playoffs, they faced Toronto in Soccer Bowl '83 in front of 60k in Vancouver... (I own the videotape...[]) http://www.soccerhalloffame.net/NASL_ChampionshipGameHistory.htm
...... Tulsa is, and forever will be, part of soccer history in this country...

MLS was interested in Tulsa initially... MLS was also very interested in Tulsa in 1997, they said as much... then MLS officials proactively contacted Tulsa officials following LaFortune's election as mayor in 2001...Tulsa has a 2002 Conventions, Sports & Leisure feasability study that was requested by MLS.  That study includes a phone-poll that was used to estimate crowds of 14,600 expected fans per game and a season ticket base of 6,100...

I've read the Johnson County feasability study for the Kansas City Wizards... let's just say Tulsa has its advantages over KC as an MLS city...

Last night, the New England Revolution only managed to draw a playoff crowd of 10,317 for it's semi-final victory over the Chicago Fire, sending them to the final... Tulsa's 2003 exhibition game between KC and Dallas drew a crowd of over 14,000 at Skelly Stadium...

Here's a timeline...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6533&SearchTerms=Major,League,Soccer

There's a big difference, IMHO, between "pie-in-the-sky" and "ahead of the curve."

MLS in Tulsa would have happened years ago had we been ahead of the curve rather than "a day late and a dollar short."

Hope the Drillers get a development for the  ballpark in the East End, since it seems to be their first choice over the west bank of the river or Jenks.  If there's someone who wants to bankroll a USL1 soccer team (one level below MLS), feel free to try to piggyback off the Drillers' to share and push for a ballpark at the East End or partner with Jenks or BA...  http://www.uslsoccer.com/teams/6187380/LIST.html

But Major League Soccer will not play in a 22,000 seat "mixed-use" baseball park... not in Tulsa... and evidently, not in Portland, Oregon either...

http://wweek.com/editorial/3351/9893/

quote:Portland Beavers and Timbers owner Merritt Paulson hasn't taken long to try a shake-up of the two minor-league teams he bought last spring.

He's been meeting with the commissioner of Major League Soccer about upgrading to that league.

Of course, this would involve money—taxpayers' money and Paulson's money. His idea: The city or state would pay to change PGE Park into a soccer-specific stadium (which would also work for football) and build a new stadium for the Beavers. Paulson would then go after an MLS franchise with his own cash.

But why now? And who's supposed to pay for all this?

Why go after an MLS team?

Paulson says one attraction of buying the Timbers was that "this city is a natural city for MLS...the appetite for soccer here is unbelievable." (The Timbers averaged 6,828 fans per regular-season game in 2007, third-best in their 12-team league.) His pitch is that upgrading PGE Park would bring another major-league team to town, and give Portland State a much-improved football home.

And the Beavers would have to split?

MLS wants its teams to play in soccer-specific venues, and those don't work with baseball teams. The fields are drastically different shapes, plus baseball and soccer present scheduling conflicts with overlapping seasons.

Paulson says MLS can tolerate a few years of the Beavers sharing PGE Park with a soccer team, but that ultimately the league wants a commitment that the Beavers will go and seating will be added in what's now left field.

Where would the Beavers go?

Paulson wants a new stadium of 8,000 to 9,000 seats, with "the right location and a footprint that would work for Major League Baseball." In other words, if we ever shoot for that major league, we'd have the beginnings of a baseball stadium, ready to expand. He wouldn't disclose any locations.

As for Wallyworld... I sincerely hope there's some other plan that will actually come to fruition... this time.  [}:)]  

 

[sgrizzle]

I was little bitter that Himelfarb was syaing the city was going to give WalMart a tax break without any sort of public input process, city council meeting, or anything else.

[perspicuity85]

Now that the Claremore/Arkansas duo and Global each have mixed financial interest in the property in question, what can be developed?  What type of rights to the property does each party have?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Now that the Claremore/Arkansas duo and Global each have mixed financial interest in the property in question, what can be developed?  What type of rights to the property does each party have?

I believe the dyanmic duo has a contract on Nordam, Bill white said he'd be happy if the city wanted his land, and Global owns one block with a contract on some other properties.

[carltonplace]

With all of the entities that have a stake in Downtown it's no wonder that we never get any true momentum on development. I wish someone would stick their neck out and back a developer right or wrong. Personally I'm holding out some hope that GDP still has plans in the East End area, but hope dwindles.

Now that Walmart is out does this mean that Nordam might reject the latest contract?

[swake]

I have been thinking and the most likely and worst outcome is for Seay to sit on this land for a couple of years until Wal-Mart is ready to grow again. Seay is a former Wal-Mart exec and he's not in the business of building anything that would compete with Wal-mart. I'm sure he still has a ton of Wal-mart stock. I think nothing is going to happen on the former Bill White and Nordam sites for some time, probably years.

The Tulsa city council needs to take this time to pass two ordinances that would control the kind of development that takes place on this land. First, ban any store with a footprint of greater than 80,000 square feet inside the IDL. That doesn't mean you can't have a 160,000 square foot super center, but it does mean that super center would have to be on two floors. Second, any development inside the city that has any public money component (housing funds, tax rebates, TIF) must pass an architectural review committee so that the development is a positive addition to Tulsa's appearance.

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by swake

I have been thinking and the most likely and worst outcome is for Seay to sit on this land for a couple of years until Wal-Mart is ready to grow again. Seay is a former Wal-Mart exec and he's not in the business of building anything that would compete with Wal-mart. I'm sure he still has a ton of Wal-mart stock. I think nothing is going to happen on the former Bill White and Nordam sites for some time, probably years.

The Tulsa city council needs to take this time to pass two ordinances that would control the kind of development that takes place on this land. First, ban any store with a footprint of greater than 80,000 square feet inside the IDL. That doesn't mean you can't have a 160,000 square foot super center, but it does mean that super center would have to be on two floors. Second, any development inside the city that has any public money component (housing funds, tax rebates, TIF) must pass an architectural review committee so that the development is a positive addition to Tulsa's appearance.

In my opinion, those guidelines--especially the architectural review committee--should have been in place YEARS ago... Now if we could actually the the Council to DO it [^]