Downtown Wal-Mart

[booWorld]

My guess is that the developers will get TIF or some type of public financial assistance.  I imagine that the City will be very lax with any 'urban' design requirements.  And, ultimately, I won't be a bit surprised if the developers build what they want to build anyway.

I have very little hope for this to become an 'urban' project.  I hope that I'm wrong.

What has been proposed sounds more 'urban' than what's there now.  However, I don't think it warrants TI financing.

[waterboy]

Honestly, its not that much of the downtown area and one that's currently blighted. If you believe in the free market system, that consumers drive the choices for shopping, then you have to believe that Tulsa may not be the sophisticated, urbane market you guys would like to think.

We ate downtown last nite at Caz's then ambled around the area. Drove to surrounding neighborhoods east of the site, Kendall/Whittier, 6th street, 11th street and near southeast of it. Of course WalMart wants to be there. That market is their bread and butter. If they can spiff it up a bit and draw in Gilcrease Hills, Reservoir Hill and even a little of the Cherry Street crowd they will do well. If they are refused this site, they'll find another.

Sometimes, I think people on this forum lose track of what an "average" Tulsan looks like.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

My guess is that the developers will get TIF or some type of public financial assistance.  I imagine that the City will be very lax with any 'urban' design requirements.  And, ultimately, I won't be a bit surprised if the developers build what they want to build anyway.

I have very little hope for this to become an 'urban' project.  I hope that I'm wrong.

What has been proposed sounds more 'urban' than what's there now.  However, I don't think it warrants TI financing.

If the developers need a TIF to make this project happen, then they'll have an uphill battle.

You are correct, boo. The chance of this being an "urban" project are slim and none. One 3-4 story apartment building fronting Elgin? A few strip centers fronting 5th? All that in front of a SuperCenter with a giant surface parking lot? That's hardly mixed-use or urban.

Simple solution. Put the SuperCenter one mile north at Pine and Peoria, where the north side desperately needs services and where there's already a big surface parking lot, small commercial pad development, major infrastructure improvements, highway access, and an existing TIF district ready to reinvest in north Tulsa.

I would speculate that downtown residents would be willing to drive 1 mile up to Pine to get their Wal-Mart fix. It would seem SuperCenter shopping (stocking up) would best involve a car anyway. The Bill White/Nordam land could be developed in a manner that's truly urban and include a smaller grocery store/market that's more condusive to quick trips by pedestrians carrying 1-2 small bags of groceries.

[CoffeeBean]

I just threw up my lunch.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

My guess is that the developers will get TIF or some type of public financial assistance.  I imagine that the City will be very lax with any 'urban' design requirements.  And, ultimately, I won't be a bit surprised if the developers build what they want to build anyway.

I have very little hope for this to become an 'urban' project.  I hope that I'm wrong.

What has been proposed sounds more 'urban' than what's there now.  However, I don't think it warrants TI financing.

If the developers need a TIF to make this project happen, then they'll have an uphill battle.

You are correct, boo. The chance of this being an "urban" project are slim and none. One 3-4 story apartment building fronting Elgin? A few strip centers fronting 5th? All that in front of a SuperCenter with a giant surface parking lot? That's hardly mixed-use or urban.

Simple solution. Put the SuperCenter one mile north at Pine and Peoria, where the north side desperately needs services and where there's already a big surface parking lot, small commercial pad development, major infrastructure improvements, highway access, and an existing TIF district ready to reinvest in north Tulsa.

I would speculate that downtown residents would be willing to drive 1 mile up to Pine to get their Wal-Mart fix. It would seem SuperCenter shopping (stocking up) would best involve a car anyway. The Bill White/Nordam land could be developed in a manner that's truly urban and include a smaller grocery store/market that's more condusive to quick trips by pedestrians carrying 1-2 small bags of groceries.

                                              Brilliant. I think this is the plan the city should encourage. I will cheer lead for that. This plan would be a benefit to Tulsa instead of a detriment to downtown.

[CassieMDM]

Anyone willing to help fight the Wal-Mart? Something along the lines of the "Stop the Chop" campaign, which was apparently successful? We live in Tribune lofts and have surveyed the building... we know of a few others that would be willing to put some time/effort/money into it. But signs/banners/flyers/bumper stickers/postcards are expensive and it takes more than just a couple of us to pull off. If we could get a group of at least 10 together, it would be more than possible. Anyone with us?

:-D

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by CassieMDM

Anyone willing to help fight the Wal-Mart? Something along the lines of the "Stop the Chop" campaign, which was apparently successful? We live in Tribune lofts and have surveyed the building... we know of a few others that would be willing to put some time/effort/money into it. But signs/banners/flyers/bumper stickers/postcards are expensive and it takes more than just a couple of us to pull off. If we could get a group of at least 10 together, it would be more than possible. Anyone with us?

:-D

                                            You have friends in the Local Unions in Tulsa should you choose to accept them(some of them have their own print shops that might be willing to help). I am willing to personally donate to this cause.

[Kenosha]

From the Tulsa Business Journal.

TBJ Downtown Article

quote:
New Downtown Plan Includes Urban Wal-Mart
Tulsa Business Staff
8/2/2007

An Arkansas real estate developer plans a mixed-use project, including an urban Wal-Mart, on the east side of downtown that he believes has the potential to kick-start the redevelopment of the heart of Tulsa, the Tulsa Business Journal learned today.
Tom Seay, owner of Seayco Group of Bentonville, Ark., holds contracts for the purchase of "a little more than 15 acres" that previously made up the core of a Washington, D.C. group's plans to build a mixed-use development called the East End.

Although Seay said it was premature to discuss a timeline, he said the development is planned around an urban Wal-Mart that would reflect a design complementary to downtown.

The Seayco Group has primarily developed "big box" retail centers in the 400,000 to 650,000-SF range, including five major centers in Tulsa and Owasso, but in the past year cut its teeth on a downtown development project when it purchased and started renovation of a 34,000-SF historical structure in Conway, Ark.

"We think our plans, once we are able to really talk about them, will start the revitalization of downtown," Seay said. "We think it would be sensational for Tulsa."

"I know a number of developers have tried to do stuff in downtown for a number of years and have never been able to do it," he said. "I feel quite confident that we will be able to pull this off."

A former long-time executive in Wal-Mart Stores Inc.'s real estate division, Seay started Seayco Group eight years ago after his retirement from Wal-Mart.

Since then, the company has developed 10-11 shopping centers in Arkansas and the Tulsa area.

"Most of our centers are large," Seay said. "Our tenants are basically Target or Super Target, Wal-Mart or Wal-Mart Supercenters. Kohls, Lowe's, Home Depot, Belks and Federated Department Stores – things like that."

Locally, Seayco has developed the Owasso Market at 96th Street North and Mingo Valley Expressway; the Riverside Market at Parkway, Delaware Avenue and 95th Street South; the Eastside Market on 71st Street between Garnett Drive and US 169; the Peoria Market at Peoria Avenue and 46th Street, and, across Riverside Drive, Riverside Market II, which includes the Red Robin and Johnny Carino's restaurants.

Seay said his company's developments are typically large, but "that is not what we have in mind for downtown." He said a downtown development has to have an urban, not suburban, design.

"It can't look like Eastside Market or Riverside Market," he said. "But it has to have some of those characteristics. We see an opportunity to put in a large retailer that would have groceries in it and some small shops that would have local restaurants, plus maybe a national chain restaurant."

In addition to other national and local tenants, Seay plans on including residential housing.

"We are working closely with American Residential Group to put in apartments," he said. "We are looking at somewhere around 150 apartments that will be like four stories high with a parking deck."

Seay said there will be some surface parking, "but we are going to try to screen that to the extent that we possibly can with landscaping and with a fence that is brick or rock with metal fencing."

He said the Wal-Mart will reflect a new urban look for the retailer.

"It will be brick on all four sides, with maybe some stucco, too – so it looks like an urban store," he said. "I think that would be fantastic for down there. It will be dynamite for downtown."

The property under contract by Seayco Group, operating under the name Downtown Tulsa Development LLC, is roughly bounded by Fourth and Sixth streets and Elgin and Lansing avenues. The property is currently owned by Nordam Group Inc. and long-time Tulsa auto dealer Bill White.
It represents the largest portion of property once targeted by Washington, D.C- based Global Development Partners LLC for the group's planned East End development. Global's plan, complete with a new Tulsa Drillers stadium, 450,000 SF of retail and dining outlets, 800 residential units, three high-quality hotels, and 150,000 SF of office space, has shrunk to a one-city block of "vertical" development.

Global Development still plans a mixed-use project, according to Tom Kissler, partner.

"We have acquired one full city block, and we are working on other attractive land," Kissler said. "We intend to do a project – and it will be a big project. When we are in a better position to talk about it, we will."

Kissler said Global's development, currently bounded by Fifth and Sixth streets and Elgin and Frankfort avenues, will include retail, residential, hotel and entertainment elements.

Seay said that, due to the higher costs of buying and developing property in an urban setting, Seayco Group will ask the City of Tulsa for a Tax Increment Financing District designation for the project to help finance improvements.

He said the TIF would be repaid out of increased sales tax and ad valorem revenues generated by the development.

He said he expects to see the same surge in development that the Seayco Group has experienced in its suburban projects. Citing the Owasso Market, he said when Seayco started the project, "there was nothing there – just basically wide open fields – and we put in the Lowes, WalMart Supercenter and the Kohls and then everybody wanted to come up there."

"This is exactly what I think will happen in downtown," he said. "Not immediately. Just like in Owasso, it took like three years for things to start changing, but once they start changing, they started changing dramatically."

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

My guess is that the developers will get TIF or some type of public financial assistance.  I imagine that the City will be very lax with any 'urban' design requirements.  And, ultimately, I won't be a bit surprised if the developers build what they want to build anyway.

I have very little hope for this to become an 'urban' project.  I hope that I'm wrong.

What has been proposed sounds more 'urban' than what's there now.  However, I don't think it warrants TI financing.

If the developers need a TIF to make this project happen, then they'll have an uphill battle.

You are correct, boo. The chance of this being an "urban" project are slim and none. One 3-4 story apartment building fronting Elgin? A few strip centers fronting 5th? All that in front of a SuperCenter with a giant surface parking lot? That's hardly mixed-use or urban.

Simple solution. Put the SuperCenter one mile north at Pine and Peoria, where the north side desperately needs services and where there's already a big surface parking lot, small commercial pad development, major infrastructure improvements, highway access, and an existing TIF district ready to reinvest in north Tulsa.

I would speculate that downtown residents would be willing to drive 1 mile up to Pine to get their Wal-Mart fix. It would seem SuperCenter shopping (stocking up) would best involve a car anyway. The Bill White/Nordam land could be developed in a manner that's truly urban and include a smaller grocery store/market that's more condusive to quick trips by pedestrians carrying 1-2 small bags of groceries.

Mister Seay's logic, in choosing the Nordam location, is contrary to the current mantra of the Goliath Corporation.........

Joe's suggestion^

Could have been taken from the current(WalMart) CEO's playbook....

I am curious to know if Mister Seay has the full endorsement of WalMart.....?
Or,..... is acting as a middle man with hopes of making $$$$ from both sides of the street....?

The article, regarding the development, refers to Mister Seay as having the "land under contract"

it does not say he has bought the Nordam property....

I guess; it may be worth a phone call or a plane trip to Arkansas to ask if WalMart has shifted gears....?
and lessons learned in Chicago and Los Angeles   have been stripped from their playbook...?

or.............? are we dealing with a former employee that is trying to sell a revised "Corporate Mission Doctrine" to the folks of Tulsa..?

[CassieMDM]

Tom Seay is an ex vice-president and executive committee member of Wal-Mart itself. And don't hold me to it, but I'm 99 percent sure that his wife is a Walton. I don't think we have to worry about Tom Seay and Wal-Mart being on the same page. Seems like one in the same to me.

[CassieMDM]

Last post from me tonight, I swear.... :-)

Let me put aside for a moment all of the issues I have with Wal-Mart being Wal-Mart. Let me just deal with the issues of Wal-Mart in a downtown location.

My husband put it best today... development in downtown should serve two purposes. It should 1) be something that is needed by the area residents and 2) be something that will pull in people from outside of the area (the rest of Tulsa, or even other cities). Wal-Mart doesn't pull in business from outside of the loop.

We believe that Downtown Tulsa should be something new and different. No chain restaurants. No chain stores. No big boxes with a sea of parking.

Downtown shouldn't look like just another strip-mall. It should be distinctive. It should offer retail, restaurants, and accommodations that no other city has (OR AT LEAST NO OTHER PART OF THIS CITY!).

The type of development we allow into the area defines what Downtown Tulsa becomes. We deserve a Unique Urban Tulsa.

[brunoflipper]

if they want a tiff, you might have a shot...

beyond that, it's a freemarket baby... they can build where they want, if they can get they land and it is zoned accordingly...

your best option may be to push for a decent looking project... since we don't use a smartcode, it'll be tough to do...

all i know is, home depot is pretty freaking convenient and one of the busiest stores in the country... i just wish it was not some craptastic suburban bigbox design at least it is hidden, sorta, behind the market...

and i grow weary of driving to 18th and yale to replace a pair of black socks before my son's 10 AM soccer game...

and the 15th and lewis reasors sucks, it sucked when it was albertson's and it sucks more now...

careful you don't protest yourself right out of a liveable downtown...

[Double A]

I agree that downtown chain stores should be something that is not offered anywhere else in town like a whole foods, trader joes, costco, ikea, cabelas, or urban outfitters etc. to draw people from outside downtown to downtown. People would flock to a development with those stores(I know I would) making downtown a true shopping destination again.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by CassieMDM

Last post from me tonight, I swear.... :-)

Let me put aside for a moment all of the issues I have with Wal-Mart being Wal-Mart. Let me just deal with the issues of Wal-Mart in a downtown location.

My husband put it best today... development in downtown should serve two purposes. It should 1) be something that is needed by the area residents and 2) be something that will pull in people from outside of the area (the rest of Tulsa, or even other cities). Wal-Mart doesn't pull in business from outside of the loop.

We believe that Downtown Tulsa should be something new and different. No chain restaurants. No chain stores. No big boxes with a sea of parking.

Downtown shouldn't look like just another strip-mall. It should be distinctive. It should offer retail, restaurants, and accommodations that no other city has (OR AT LEAST NO OTHER PART OF THIS CITY!).

The type of development we allow into the area defines what Downtown Tulsa becomes. We deserve a Unique Urban Tulsa.

Thats a lot of shouldn'ts. But ya know its not as though people have been trying to stop those things from happening. And this development won't do that either. There is still plenty of available property. I would certainly prefer something unique with this development, but I think its an improvement. I see this as possibly being one more small stepping stone to bringing downtown back to life.

We know we need a grocery store downtown. This isnt perfect, but its a start. If this wal-mart and the development around it is sucessful that will spur more life back into the area. If downtown grows enough, then there may be a good enough market for a small specialty food store. If this wal-mart fails it will be either because the market is only wanting a specialty food store or the area market isnt strong enough to support a grocery store at all.

This may not be the "class or type" of development you want. It will pull from a varaiety of demographics. But the "trendy" downtowner types can still use it, it will be an improvement from nothing, until downtown grows enough to support a more specialized grocery store.

I actually think this will help bring more  people downtown to live. One of the things about downtown that has imo deterred people from considering living there, even the urban dwelling types, is that it does not look like a place to live. It doesnt look like a neighborhood of any type, urban or suburban. This will help make it look like a place to live and not just a bunch of half vacant office towers and empty streets. A store that is open late, other stores that will come around it, the 200 or so added people living there will help.

Even though we have all those skyscrapers giving the illusion of a city. Its almost as though downtown is having to regrow and repopulate itself starting from a suburban stage. If we could go downtown any evening and magically make the buildings that didnt have anyone living in them disappear, there wouldnt be much there. Our downtown will still naturally attract more urban dwellers and urban type stores and restaurants so don't let this bit make you feel disheartened. Its just one more small step in regrowing a living downtown.

[Bledsoe]

IMHO if they do not get a TIF they will not come--too expensive for the infrastructure for the business plan to work.

On the other hand--Pine and Peoria already has the infrastructure and the site.  It is my understanding the Mayor has put together a fast-track task force to find a savior for this corner.  The other businesses have already exercised the drop down rent clauses because the major tenant has left.  The owner of the center will surly face bankruptcy unless help comes soon.

Look for two different Wal-Mart plans to be on the Bentonville table.  I hope they pick Pine and Peoria--it sure fits their business plan better and will save downtown retail and this site to live for another day.