Downtown Wal-Mart

[inteller]

i dig it, keep em coming.

someone add some PWA style worker motifs.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

To me, making a Wal-Mart 'unique to Tulsa' means making it art deco.  I've added color to my design  to show just how cool a Wal-Mart could actually be in downtown...  Like others have said, the design of this building will drive the future buildings in that part of downtown, so it needs to be done right, with style, and has to be unique.  Who knows, if they do decide to 1)take design suggestions and 2)make it art deco, Tulsa's favorite architectural style might just see another boom... I think it'd be great to see a large number of new art deco buildings in downtown.

(Click to enlarge)

Keep in mind, a store that size will have an entrance at each end. If they would turn the front storefronts facing out, you might have a shot.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

ok, i'm an optimist, so sue me... i had hoped this time it'd be different...

but the word on the street is that this is a  crap screen and seay is going to move forward with a bull**** big-box suburban design...

he's been asked to do a design similar to those i posted here http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7227&whichpage=2 and he declined...
seay's even gone as far as implying no one should expect more because "it's just tulsa"...

**** him and feed him beans...

if it is all his money, he can do whatever he wants but it won't be, he'll need a tiff... i'm betting that seay has yet to officially ask the mayor about getting a tiff...

now, the questions are:
needing a tiff, is the city willing to require a really urban design?
are we so desperate we'll take some ****ty suburban big-box dolled up with bricks and stucco, separated from the street by an asphalt ocean?

with a tiff in play, this fight needs to be about the building, the design and the land use and NOT the tenant... walmart will probably bail on the locale in 10 years, so it better be a good design...

this should all be about the developer... consider that walmart is trying hard to get into urban areas and might be willing to make many merchandise, design and  operational concessions to the vocal locals (just as they did in ATL)... seay however is trying to dupe us...

the mayor needs to know that we won't stand for seay's crappy suburban design in downtown...

everyone here needs to contact the mayor and let her know what you think...

Si Commandante..........!

eef this does not take care of the problem....there is always the negotiator Doctor Pablo...........



[}:)]

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle


(Click to enlarge)


Keep in mind, a store that size will have an entrance at each end. If they would turn the front storefronts facing out, you might have a shot.

True.  The image is so large though, that I just stopped adding to the building.  I wanted to give an idea of what it would look like--but it would be larger and would have another entrance.

The drawing took me all of a couple hours to come up with, which I think speaks volumes of how much thought Tom Seay put into this store: None.  It's a regular SuperCenter, subsituting brick for concrete blocks.

If I was able to come up with that in such a short amount of time (and in Microsoft Paint of all programs), I'm going to be very disappointed with anything less.  Less unique, less actual design, less community-appropriate......

Here is an additional benefit of having a two-level store as opposed to a single-level one:
The Wal-Mart store is supposed to be 150,000 sq. ft.  A two-level building occupying a 300' city block with vacated alley would give this store 180,000 sq. ft..... which means the additional 30,000 sq. ft. could be designated for those talked-about storefronts on the first level.

If Seay's plans include 65,000 sq. ft. of other retail and restaurants, up to 30,000 sq. ft. of that could be included in this one building.

It would save money for these stores to be included, maybe enough to bump the 65,000 sq. ft. of additional retail to 80,000...

AND, it would give the building tenants BEFORE Wal-Mart decides to move out (if and when), so the possibility of the building sitting vacant is reduced.

[Rico]

Ok.... just for you Art Deco fans... here is a small sliver of irony regarding this whole Art Deco concept for the DT WalMart..
An architect from Tulsa that has designed for WalMart published the following calendar last year.........

Who knows...? maybe Mister Seay will like the idea...?
She did work on the Chicago "Urban WalMart"..

Deco Tulsa

[booWorld]

About 15 years ago, I attended a presentation at Harwelden by William McDonough on his ideas for a green Wal-Mart (or "Eco-Mart") to be built in Lawrence, Kansas.  The prototype had many interesting concepts, and it was constructed there in 1993.  Does anyone know the current status of the Lawrence Wal-Mart?  I've read news sources from Lawrence which claim that several of the building's environmentally-friendly aspects/programs have been altered or discontinued.

I remember one of McDonough's comments about Wal-Mart stores was that they are typically designed for relatively short life spans before they are abandoned.  The Lawrence Wal-Mart was designed with taller walls so it could be converted into two levels of residential use in the future.

I don't think that this proposed East End development deserves TIF, and I will email my Councilor (Maria Barnes) if TIF becomes an issue.  Ordinary taxpayers in Tulsa certainly shouldn't be expected to help finance the construction of a Wal-Mart.  I will be disappointed, but not surprised, if the finished product is a typical suburban type of big box.  If there is no public financial assistance involved, then I will view it as a short-term place holder until something more urban can be built on its site.  If the finished product is a typical suburban type of Wal-Mart which is part of TIF district, then I will be EXTREMELY disappointed, but again not surprised.  Tulsa does not have a good track record of quality urban design.  One only needs to look a few blocks to the west (to Boston and Main) to see that.

[tulsa1603]

OK, i've had the weekend to cool off...get drunk....and re-evaluate my opinion on this.  I'm trying to envision a downtown with Wal-mart, and overall, this will probably be positive, architecture notwithstanding.  It will definitely bring traffic downtown, and it might possibly introduce some people to downtown who otherwise would have no reason to go there.  It will bring groceries and household items that people DO need to the residents, making it a much more feasible place to live.  It will likely be very successful - they rarely close a Wal-mart for poor performance.  

I do fear that the store will have a reputation of being "ghetto", but then again, i can't think of one in the city of Tulsa that doesn't have that reputation.

My first reaction was that the urban trendy types we are trying to draw downtown don't shop at WalMart.  But then again, my brother lives an urban trendy lifestyle in Houston, makes a ton of money, and he STILL shops for groceries at WalMart.  It's just something that is ingrained in people, I suppose.

Architecturally, I'd rather see them do something contemporary and cutting edge rather than a cheesy fake stucco imitation of art deco.  I hold little hope for either.  I wish they would do underground parking rather than a huge lot.  

Honestly, I'd rather it be a Neighborhood Market store.  I will await preliminary site plans and concepts before I go off the deep end in opposing this thing.

[booWorld]

As a minimum requirement for the creation of a TIF district, 5th Street between Frankfort and Lansing Avenues ought to be dedicated to the City of Tulsa as a public street.  Kenosha and Lansing Avenues between 4th and 6th Streets ought to be re-dedicated as public streets, also.

The right-of-way widths should be increased a bit to allow for generous sidewalks and for angled parking on each side of each street.  That would help to break up any proposed sea of parking, and it would give the City some control over streetscaping within the development on the public streets.  If 5th Place between Kenosha and Lansing remained private and any easements were vacanted, then Seayco would have a 198,000 sqare foot parcel for a single-story Wal-Mart store, although I think a two-story store on a single block would be far superior.  

I'd rather not see 5th Place built over, but this might be a compromise in return for the creation of a TIF district.

[brunoflipper]

if walmart is just a tenant in seay's development, then it's possible that walmart is just as much in the dark about development plans in downtown tulsa as everybody else...

based on other cities, walmart will build urban stores when the community demands it...and by that i mean that more than a big-box with a few courses of brick on it...

would it hurt to relay concerns about how this thing is unfolding to Lee Scott and walmart corporate? it might result in some additional pressure on seay...

http://www.walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=221

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

Architecturally, I'd rather see them do something contemporary and cutting edge rather than a cheesy fake stucco imitation of art deco.  I hold little hope for either.  I wish they would do underground parking rather than a huge lot.  

I wouldn't want something that was merely a cheap, stucco imitation, either.  Anything that's built should be built to last... and if it's art deco, terra cotta would be a must--not stucco (yuck-o).

Art deco, contemporary, futuristic, art nouveau, Georgian, Gothic revival... as long as the building is architecturally significant (significant meaning unique, not necessarily a masterpiece.. this is Wal-Mart, after all) to Tulsa, it'd be okay.

I threw out the art deco design because it's something Tulsa is known for.  Because it's something we're known for, the building would already have a more pronounced presence and would further develop the art deco identity.
It would also be the first significant art deco (revival or otherwise) development in a very long time, aside from the MTTA station.

[carltonplace]

Look at all the positives people.

1. Another reason for people to come downtown and then get the heck out. Why would we want people to mill around and shop at boutiques, or walk to downtown restaurants or bars or "shudder" live there. I hope they bring their cars!

2. A huge box building that will have no use once WalMart is done with it. In 10 years we can talk about what we want to see in our downtown again.

3. This anchor store could attract other awesome suburban standards like Super Target, Lowes and Belks! We won't have to walk from store to store, we can drive! Lets put the parking in front so its not too confusing.

4. This shouldn't leave any room for a baseball or soccer stadium so that long running argument (soccer! baseball! SOCCER! BASEBALL!) is dead.

5. They will finaly buldoze all of those nasty old brick buildings and apartments.

6. It fits downtown perfectly. Too bad we told Bass Pro shop no, they'd be cozy next to Walmart.

7. We can send the homeless to work there.
8. We can send the grifters to grift there

9 There is just too much land downtown. It needs to be filled up quick.

10. We might get to help one of the largest corporation on the planet get bigger with a few of our tax dollars.

Win-Win-Win

[Chris]

Gee Carlton is that sarcasm I detect?

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

if walmart is just a tenant in seay's development, then it's possible that walmart is just as much in the dark about development plans in downtown tulsa as everybody else...

based on other cities, walmart will build urban stores when the community demands it...and by that i mean that more than a big-box with a few courses of brick on it...

would it hurt to relay concerns about how this thing is unfolding to Lee Scott and walmart corporate? it might result in some additional pressure on seay...

http://www.walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=221

Exactly......!!

I don't think Lee Scott would bring this sort of negative P.R. and animosity to the WalMart Corp...

He has been all about trying to correct the image of the Corporation....

Gentlemen I would like to ask just 10 minutes of your time to read the following Time Magazine cover story....

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1098936-1,00.html

In reading this a few thing seem strange about Seay's proposal...

Seay is ignoring the needs of the City(Pine and Peoria)....

Seay said "his target area that he feels to be under served by WalMart is the Northern portion of Tulsa...?"

He...."Needs a TIF to get others involved and to help cover the start up costs..?"

Seay will be creating a very large stink in WalMart's own backyard....!

Something I do not feel Lee Scott or WalMart wants at the present.

So.... If Bruno is correct,They need to be made very aware of the CRAP that is soon to be hitting the fan..!
My own opinion... They have No F%#ing idea the mess that this Seay is dragging them into.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

About 15 years ago, I attended a presentation at Harwelden by William McDonough on his ideas for a green Wal-Mart (or "Eco-Mart") to be built in Lawrence, Kansas.  The prototype had many interesting concepts, and it was constructed there in 1993.  Does anyone know the current status of the Lawrence Wal-Mart?  I've read news sources from Lawrence which claim that several of the building's environmentally-friendly aspects/programs have been altered or discontinued.

They also built one in Moore.  My company had a contract with them on an innovative heat pump heating/cooling design they used.  The condenser for their cooling system was designed as a water fall feature.  Tres cool idea on paper, major PITA in reality.  Paper cups and paper in a cooling system are not good.  I have no clue if most of the green ideas are still in operation there.  It's been at least seven years since I've been on that property.

On to the DT Wal-Mart:

So far I've not heard of Saks or Neiman Marcus being interested in sparking the development.

I really don't have an issue with the concept of Wal-Mart commerce coming to Downtown.  I, like Bruno and a few others, though don't want the suburban dreck look.  Wal-Mart spurs development and re-development in many places they go.  The new Neighborhood Market was a vast improvement over the delapitated Bel-Aire Shopping Center, and the one on Peoria is a nicer addition than what was there before.

Wal-Mart doesn't look for a lot of hand-outs like speculative developers do who have never even built a hotel before seem to need to make something happen in downtown.  Wal-Mart has the cash and the clout to make something happen.

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

if walmart is just a tenant in seay's development, then it's possible that walmart is just as much in the dark about development plans in downtown tulsa as everybody else...

based on other cities, walmart will build urban stores when the community demands it...and by that i mean that more than a big-box with a few courses of brick on it...

would it hurt to relay concerns about how this thing is unfolding to Lee Scott and walmart corporate? it might result in some additional pressure on seay...

http://www.walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStoresWeb/navigate.do?catg=221

Thanks for the link, Bruno... I sent a specifically-worded email earlier this afternoon.  We all should.