Downtown Wal-Mart

[YoungTulsan]

I still think that adding grocery Downtown (in this case, the DT Wal-mart), in addition to shopping in West Tulsa (Tulsa Hills and potentially a Town West Wal-mart) has the potential to suck a LOT of life out of Brookside.  As it is, Brookside doesn't thrive, it just gets by.  Businesses open and close pretty often.  But a lot of the business on Brookside consists of people coming from underserved markets nearby, due to the fact that Brookside is the closest place to go for many of those underserved markets.

Not that those markets deserve to be underserved.  I am moreso just reminding the Brookside area how important it will be to increase population density through good infill in order for it to even maintain the level of business that exists today.  Most people want to see Brookside THRIVE (since they have a lot of the "Urban" "dense" "trendy" building styles somewhat covered).  Brookside already needs more people, and after Tulsa Hills, Town West, and the Downtown markets get served, Brookside will need a LOT more people in order to sustain or grow business.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I still think that adding grocery Downtown (in this case, the DT Wal-mart), in addition to shopping in West Tulsa (Tulsa Hills and potentially a Town West Wal-mart) has the potential to suck a LOT of life out of Brookside.  As it is, Brookside doesn't thrive, it just gets by.  Businesses open and close pretty often.  But a lot of the business on Brookside consists of people coming from underserved markets nearby, due to the fact that Brookside is the closest place to go for many of those underserved markets.

Not that those markets deserve to be underserved.  I am moreso just reminding the Brookside area how important it will be to increase population density through good infill in order for it to even maintain the level of business that exists today.  Most people want to see Brookside THRIVE (since they have a lot of the "Urban" "dense" "trendy" building styles somewhat covered).  Brookside already needs more people, and after Tulsa Hills, Town West, and the Downtown markets get served, Brookside will need a LOT more people in order to sustain or grow business.

YT- Which section of Brookside are you referring to that is "just getting by"?  There are quite a few businesses who have been there for years.  People don't stay with a business that is "just getting by" for ten years or longer.

Maybe if you are talking about south of I-44 I'd agree, but I really don't think that development downtown and out west is going to cause a great sucking sound on Brookside between 33rd St. & I-44.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I still think that adding grocery Downtown (in this case, the DT Wal-mart), in addition to shopping in West Tulsa (Tulsa Hills and potentially a Town West Wal-mart) has the potential to suck a LOT of life out of Brookside.  As it is, Brookside doesn't thrive, it just gets by.  Businesses open and close pretty often.  But a lot of the business on Brookside consists of people coming from underserved markets nearby, due to the fact that Brookside is the closest place to go for many of those underserved markets.

Not that those markets deserve to be underserved.  I am moreso just reminding the Brookside area how important it will be to increase population density through good infill in order for it to even maintain the level of business that exists today.  Most people want to see Brookside THRIVE (since they have a lot of the "Urban" "dense" "trendy" building styles somewhat covered).  Brookside already needs more people, and after Tulsa Hills, Town West, and the Downtown markets get served, Brookside will need a LOT more people in order to sustain or grow business.

There's nothing on Brookside that a downtown Wal-Mart is going to hurt.  Any business on Peoria has already successfully contended with the presence of a downtown Home Depot as well as the Brookside Neighborhood Market.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I still think that adding grocery Downtown (in this case, the DT Wal-mart), in addition to shopping in West Tulsa (Tulsa Hills and potentially a Town West Wal-mart) has the potential to suck a LOT of life out of Brookside.  As it is, Brookside doesn't thrive, it just gets by.  Businesses open and close pretty often.  But a lot of the business on Brookside consists of people coming from underserved markets nearby, due to the fact that Brookside is the closest place to go for many of those underserved markets.

Not that those markets deserve to be underserved.  I am moreso just reminding the Brookside area how important it will be to increase population density through good infill in order for it to even maintain the level of business that exists today.  Most people want to see Brookside THRIVE (since they have a lot of the "Urban" "dense" "trendy" building styles somewhat covered).  Brookside already needs more people, and after Tulsa Hills, Town West, and the Downtown markets get served, Brookside will need a LOT more people in order to sustain or grow business.

"young" indeed... i'd have to disagree with your logic, completely disagree.

[YoungTulsan]

I wasnt speaking of just the Downtown Wal-mart, but a multitude of things.  I have no problem with you rebutting my ideas though.  Bruno, are you saying that people right now do not travel to Brookside from other underserved markets, or are you saying that business as a whole will be increased to where there is not a negative effect on Brookside?  I say it is "just getting by" because lots of businesses tend to come and go.  To the businesses that come and go, I think the area is built up to a lot more than it actually is, and they start a businesses thinking Brookside is the "hot" area.  It does not always translate to that business having enough support 6 months after it opens.  It is mainly bars and restraunts that I see come and go though.  The local shops have a strong following.  You do not have to go as far down as I-44 to find blight though, there is plenty between 41st and I-44.

Also, Brookside right now is a cute little microcosm of a walkable area.  The vision that the pro-Urban people on here have of a sustainable walkable dense community would be magnitudes larger than the little strip from 39th to 33rd that exists now.  It needs more customers, and more residents to take it in an urban direction, not less.

Floyd, the Homeland on Peoria successfully contended with the Walmart Neighborhood market?  And the Albertsons?  Oh yeah, I mean Food Pyramid...

The Home Depot downtown didn't pull away hardware business because the hardware market has exploded.  People in Maple Ridge have rising equity with which to borrow against to buy home improvement supplies.  Labor is el cheapo right now.  Lending is generous to anyone who wants to build right now.

Sorry for the thread derail.  I like Brookside

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I wasnt speaking of just the Downtown Wal-mart, but a multitude of things.  I have no problem with you rebutting my ideas though.  Bruno, are you saying that people right now do not travel to Brookside from other underserved markets, or are you saying that business as a whole will be increased to where there is not a negative effect on Brookside?  I say it is "just getting by" because lots of businesses tend to come and go.  To the businesses that come and go, I think the area is built up to a lot more than it actually is, and they start a businesses thinking Brookside is the "hot" area.  It does not always translate to that business having enough support 6 months after it opens.  It is mainly bars and restraunts that I see come and go though.  The local shops have a strong following.  You do not have to go as far down as I-44 to find blight though, there is plenty between 41st and I-44.

Also, Brookside right now is a cute little microcosm of a walkable area.  The vision that the pro-Urban people on here have of a sustainable walkable dense community would be magnitudes larger than the little strip from 39th to 33rd that exists now.  It needs more customers, and more residents to take it in an urban direction, not less.

Floyd, the Homeland on Peoria successfully contended with the Walmart Neighborhood market?  And the Albertsons?  Oh yeah, I mean Food Pyramid...

The Home Depot downtown didn't pull away hardware business because the hardware market has exploded.  People in Maple Ridge have rising equity with which to borrow against to buy home improvement supplies.  Labor is el cheapo right now.  Lending is generous to anyone who wants to build right now.

Sorry for the thread derail.  I like Brookside

i'm saying that no one who currently goes to brookside, from any of the neighboring hoods, will find their needs better met at a downtown walmart... i'm saying that a downtown walmart will not have a negative effect on brookside... i'm saying quite the opposite... i'm saying that a downtown grocery store will have a net positive effect on housing in downtown... i'm saying that some of those people, future downtown residents, will have some of their needs better met in brookside vs. a downtown walmart... what i'm not saying is that "adding grocery Downtown (in this case, the DT Wal-mart), in addition to shopping in West Tulsa (Tulsa Hills and potentially a Town West Wal-mart) has the potential to suck a LOT of life out of Brookside."... suck some "ilfe" out of the walmart market on peoria? maybe, but who cares anyway? that is as far as i'm willing to concede on a negative brookside impact for a downtown walmart...

no one who shops at dwelling spaces is going to opt out for a walmart product and last i checked, except for lyons, home depot and the midtown art theater, that is all the retail we really have down there... unless harrington's is still open...

[YoungTulsan]

Perhaps they will not find their needs better met.  But if they are similarly met, and the store is closer, people will choose to go there instead of Brookside.  And perhaps the Downtown Walmart will only steal business from other Walmarts, but this plan also calls for other retail stores.  There will eventually be some local businesses, and small specialty shops in that development.  Again, I am not using this as a reason to kill the downtown Wal-mart, only as a reason to encourage more population density in the Brookside area.

But I see your point.  That businesses as a whole will increase by bringing more people to the area.  Thats the same thing I am argueing for, but I am saying that Brookside needs some more people too.  In my personal opinion, it would take a lot of people downtown to have a positive effect on Brookside.  A Wal-mart supercenter, if you calculate the total sales one of those behomoths does, will take a lot more sales from the area than just the planned 150 apartment dwellers worth that this plan calls for.  If Downtown were to take off into a lively place, like I hope it will, then this will be a success.  If all we get is a Suburban Wal-mart, and Downtown continues along the same path that it has been following for the last couple of decades, then that Wal-mart will only be detracting from the Brookside customer base.  But I was not only talking about Downtown, but also West Tulsa.  I have known people from both West Tulsa, as well as residents of the OTHER side of downtown from Brookside, that come to Brookside for goods and services.  I mean, honestly, where else would they go?  Sand Springs has recently added a few new LIGHTS and a CHICKEN RESTRAUNT?  West Tulsa has a Warehouse Market.  I can positively think of nothing else substancial in West Tulsa right now.  Tulsa Hills is very much needed to serve them.
If you are anti-sprawl, you have probably argued that big developments in Broken Arrow, Bixby, Jenks, and Owasso take away from Tulsa's tax base.  How does this differ?  (Same Tax base, so switch from Tax Base to Customer Base)

[Conan71]

I still didn't see you cite any specific prime examples of high business turn-over in Brookside.

A Town West Wal-Mart will have ZERO impact on shopping or eating along Brookside for two reasons: geography- Town West will pull business from north Creek County and some from the west side.  Neither this nor a DT Wal-Mart will pull business out of the Brookside area as Brookside is mainly comprised of specialty stores with either high-quality or specialty goods which are not available at Wal-Mart, galleries, and restaurants/bars.  Sorry, I just don't get the correlation.

Some of the long-term tennants I can think of in the volatile food/beverage market:

BBD
In The Raw
Brookside Bar
Crow Creek
The Brook
Webers
Claud's
The Grapevine (or whatever it's being called these days)
El Fuego/Ford's, et.al.  Change in concept ideas.  Ford's wasn't a good concept.

Some of the bars or restaurants which have come and gone were either the wrong concept, poorly run, service sucked, or the food sucked.  You can't blame poor management on anything other than poor management.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

I'm on board!  I think the idea of having commerce downtown is good, I've stated this opinion repeatedly.  Small unique shops = good, but it hasnt happened so I'll take what we can get.

NOT, if they made it unique and actually urban I would welcome them.  Lets hope they read over this debate.  I'm proud it has stayed constructive.

[buckeye]

Likely that businesses that come and go in Brookside are those started by starry-eyed hippies with fun, goofy notions but no idea how to start or run a business.

How much more dense can the residences around Brookside get?  Is somebody proposing knocking down sections of houses to build multi-story multiple dwellings?  The area is nothing but houses with a thin strip of commercial stuff along Peoria.  I'm not sure what you're getting at here either, youngtulsan...

Then again, I view Brookside as starting at 31st and continuing south until you see the ghetto start (approximately 44th street).  South of that, the area has other problems that increased population density will not fix...quite the opposite, in fact.  The neighborhoods down there apparently can't or won't support much of anything.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I still didn't see you cite any specific prime examples of high business turn-over in Brookside.

A Town West Wal-Mart will have ZERO impact on shopping or eating along Brookside for two reasons: geography- Town West will pull business from north Creek County and some from the west side.  Neither this nor a DT Wal-Mart will pull business out of the Brookside area as Brookside is mainly comprised of specialty stores with either high-quality or specialty goods which are not available at Wal-Mart, galleries, and restaurants/bars.  Sorry, I just don't get the correlation.

Even a downtown Wal-Mart would have no effect on Brookside.  All it's going to do is shift money that would normally go to Reasor's, Warehouse Market, maybe some of Home Depot, that little convenience store downtown, maybe some of your office supply stores in the area.

Can't really expect Wal-Mart to hurt some of the downtown businesses, some it will, but Wal-Mart isn't an attraction either.  It isn't likely to bring much business to the rest of downtown.  Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Wal-Mart will mean more business for El Guapo or Caz's or (insert company name here), but I doubt it.

Barring a miracle from the developer, I see no reason for a TIF.

[jne]

I never thought I would say this, but I think I might be FOR the Walmart.  If it looks like the pics with parking and apartments, it may be our best option for starting commerce that supports downtown residential.  As long as the city isn't doling out ridiculous incentives, this is practically freebie for downtown livability.  I think it can only help - and if they leave, at least there won't be an empty box left in its wake.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by jne

I never thought I would say this, but I think I might be FOR the Walmart.  If it looks like the pics with parking and apartments, it may be our best option for starting commerce that supports downtown residential.  As long as the city isn't doling out ridiculous incentives, this is practically freebie for downtown livability.  I think it can only help - and if they leave, at least there won't be an empty box left in its wake.

I can verify that if Seay goes looking for a TIF.. He will be greeted by the City of Tulsa Planning Department...

It will not be a "Big Blue and Yellow Box"........
[}:)]

[aoxamaxoa]

You want dwelling units downtown? well then, you better support this.

Seay can afford the development. If he's planning on TIF,
he best think again.

Next up to make it all come together.....school for the kids and within walking distance.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seay can afford the development. If he's planning on TIF,
he best think again.

You and Rico are more optimistic than I that the Planning Commission and the City won't cave on the TIF issue.  I'm remembering what I read in the Tulsa World less than two years ago when Charles Norman warned the TMAPC to not experiment with new policies and procedures on the Tulsa Hills development.  I know someone who attended those meetings, and, according to her, the TMAPC was asking about turn out lanes for bus stops, the size of proposed signage, curbs, and sidewalks.  The end result was that the TIF district was approved.

I'm not sure about the signage requirements, but curb and sidewalk standards are in Tulsa's ordinances, and have been for decades.  It's the TMAPC's and the City's obligation to look into such issues, especially when a TIF district is being considered.

We'll see what happens with the Seayco development, but it won't surprise me if the City approves a TIF district with little or no urban design standards.