Income up in Tulsa

[AMP]

quote:Originally posted by PreserveSouthTulsa.com

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Gee that is great.  It shows that the city payroll published by the World has greatly increased average incomes..  

$18+per hour average wage, while many are working for the minimum wage.  Such facts on the reversed side of the page must list reasons for illegal's.    

By the way, who works for minimum wage anyway?  Well, besides kids and people who can't put the bottle or pipe down long enough to work a full shift.  Most employers offer raises, although small, to employees after working for a short while.  If you work for minimum wage for longer than a couple of months, you probably need to look in the mirror for your problem.

Actually you would be surprized at how many Tulsa area businesses depend on and pay minimum wage to their employees.  Being in the personnel business for over 15 years I serviced dozens of companies that paid their help minimum wage.  I recall the $3.35 per hour days that lasted 10 years.  We had over 2,000 employees that worked for $3.35 per hour.  Many of those worked for the enitre 10 years at the same plant at $3.35, and some are still there working for the increased minimum wage.  

Not uncommon for adults to work for minimum wage in this area.  I know of several labor halls that still pay minimum wage to many of their workers, because that is all the businesses will pay.  Very difficult but not impossible to pay a higher scale than the business you are servicing.  We had a few where we did that with their permission, to fufill their needs during crunch times and for seasonal help.  We always tried to get them to raise their sites and pay more, but most were very set in their ways.  

Still, there are many factory and plant jobs in the Tulsa area that only pay minimum wage today.  

It was at one time around 1960 a rule of thumb that a decent hand was worth $1,000 per year times their age. 20 years old $20,000 30 years old $30,000, 40 years old $40,000.    

I added up all the hours I worked one week last month, and I only earned $3.20 per hour, and had to travel through three states to earn that!  Spent two days planning and recording ads.  Spent a half hour renting and returning the rental car.  Then drove 1.5 hours to one event in Kansas, worked for 5 hours then drove all night non stop with no sleep another 7.5 hours to an event in Texas and worked from 6am until 7:45pm, and again on Sunday from 5:45am until 6:00pm then drove 6 hours straight home to be in time to return the rental car which takes another 30 minutes between driving there, re-fueling and at spending time at their counter.  

If I subtract the $279 Traffic Ticket, with fines and penalty, I received in OKC for going 65 in the 60 MPH zone by Frontier City on I-35 that brings my total hourly earnings down even further.  

Wish I earned $5.85 per hour.  Guess I am in the wrong industry.  LOL

[bokworker]

CF, it's bad news because some never want to believe that the fact that they are not as successful as someone else is their own fault. The value of decisions and sacrifices that people make to better their own future is never given any credit..... successful people are ALWAYS  successful on the back of some poor sod that has no chance to make the same decisions or sacrifices.

[AMP]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Still no one has answered the question:  how could this be bad news?

And AMP... FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
THIS IS NOT THE TULSA WORLD STATISTIC.  
The World ran the article when the stats come out.

According to the breakdown stats given by the BEA, the median income is up.  The average income is up.  Every bracket is up.

What the hell counts as good news around here?  There is plenty of bad news in the world that we don't need to turn EVERYTHING into negative news.  No, the picture is not immaculate.  But Tulsa is better off than 297 other metro areas (including OKC, Albuquerque and other cities similar to use) AND has a faster rate of income growth.
HOW IS THAT BAD NEWS?

=============================================

Hey, I am glad someone is making more money in the past years.  Sure is not me, or many folks that I know, but good news that someone is.  

One would suspect that people today would need to be earning more money and carrying more cash in their pockets, as most every commodity in sight has skyrocketed in price over the past three years.      

I am still waiting to find a loose $10 or $20 bill blowing in the wind considering their is $60 Million being spent in Tulsa this week.  

We were trying to test a fax machine we purchased recently and among three of us none of us knew anyone with a home telephone any longer.  Not sure if that is a sign of the economic times, or just that most folks have replaced their home phone with a Cricket cell phone today. LOL

I actually was replying to another post above regarding how local newspapers seem to print favorable stories versus bad news when tourists are in their towns.  Kind of an Andy of Mayberry type deal I guess.  

Did not mean to imply the Tulsa World did exactly that, just speaking of another instance of a few newspapers that have done that.  I have read it and seen it in person at Daytona, Florida as I have friends that live and own businesses there, and read their paper online at times, and have been there dozens of times for Bike Weeks.  

Most the local business owners near Daytona will tell you they really don't like the Tourist weeks, but they put up with it for the money.   Most people tell their friends the truth about how they earn their money, who they really like and what they have to put up with, boss - sugar daddy - customers - colleagues, to get cash.  LOL

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by AMP


Not uncommon for adults to work for minimum wage in this area.

Not in any industry I am associated with.  What industries are these that pay minimum wage?

quote:
Still, there are many factory and plant jobs in the Tulsa area that only pay minimum wage today.  

What factory job pays minimum wage?  Janitor?

quote:
It was at one time around 1960 a rule of thumb that a decent hand was worth $1,000 per year times their age. 20 years old $20,000 30 years old $30,000, 40 years old $40,000.    

In 1960 the median income for the entire country for a male was $30,000.  $40,000 would put you in the top 90% of wage earners.  Certainly the AVERAGE 40 year old was not in the top 90% of wage earners.  I fear you are again remembering the 'good ole' days' as you wish they were.

quote:
I added up all the hours I worked one week last month, and I only earned $3.20 per hour, and had to travel through three states to earn that!  

Then get a job at McDonald's.  Take up welding, machine operator, tool and die work, truck driver and start earning ~$20 an hour.  Hell, a bus driver make $12-15 an hour in Tulsa and they are begging for employees.

Am I just better informed in the job market or does my company and all our customer's just pay off the chart for employees?  Is the government data I link to OVER AND OVER showing the average wage by industry wrong and no one told me?

Its insanely frustration to try and discuss something and not have someone care about facts or just come back with "back in my day."  Especially when that is easily debunked.

Argh!

/off for a few days.  Too frustrating.

[Conan71]

I'm trying to figure out where all these crap minimum wage manufacturing jobs are in Tulsa.  Especially for a large scale manufacturer.  Something's not computing here.  My hyperbole monitor is pegged at BS.

[AMP]

I was always amazed at how many business owners paid their help minimum wage also.  But, the majority of those that did and most likley still do are still in business and doing good still today.  

Not every position at these firms were at minimum wage, but a large portion at many were and still are.  

Actually the rule of thumb or the $1,000 per year earnings was given to me last night at dinner by a gentleman that graduated high school in Tulsa in 1957.  He told me that is what they were taught in school of their expected earning potential. Of course the Tulsa Public Schools also seemed to of taught people that summer is June through August also.  

I won't divluge my entire customer list of over 540 business in the Tulsa metro area that I serviced for over 15 years, but here are a few that I serviced that  paid minimum wage.


Three Beverage bottlers, help on the Canned and 2 Liter lines paid $3.35 for 10 years and stil pays minimum wage today.  

Three Beverage Bottlers for Merchandisers that brought product from the back of the grocery stores to the shelves.  They were paid minimum wage plus mileage and fuel.  

Oil and Windshield fluid packaging company on Charles Page Blvd.

Dry Wall mix packaging company off of 71st Street in Broken Arrow.

Four major Moving and Storage firms in Tulsa and Broken Arrow.

Bartlett Collins Glass Factory Sapulpa

Glass Bottle manufacture in Sapulpa

Heat Exchanger plants in West and North Tulsa Rod Busters

Refractory Plant in North Tulsa

Majority of plants at the Port of Catoosa
Pipeline manufactures, pipe handlers, tile warehouse, Re-Bar bender and epoxy coater.

Powder Coating businesses

Chiminy Cover Manufacture

Fence manufacturing company near Mingo

Tile manufacture in Cherokee Industrial Center

Many landscape and asphalt companies

Meat packaging company in Owasso

Pier Drilling company in east tulsa, helpers to shovel dirt away from the hole being drilled.

Most restaurant help for back end including three in Utica Square

Fiberglass Manufacturing  plant Sand Springs

Fiberglass Manufacturing plant Tulsa

Large Pipe manufacture in West Tulsa near Union street.

Trucking Company in West Tulsa near the Pipe Manufacture on Union Street. Cleaned Trucks

Cookie and Juice packaging company Tulsa

Fin Tube manufacture in North Tulsa

Many Temp Companies in Tulsa for day labor positions.  Various Positions  

Dry Wall delivery company on Sheridan. Carrying Drywall

Beer Distribution Companies Warehouse Help

Egg Distribution company Warehouse Help

Wal Mart - We had 250 people working at three stored as cashiers, janitors and stocking shelves at night.  All for minimum wage.    

Tulsa County Labor Bid was at minimum wage for 15 plus years, and most likely still is today.  Shirlees Temporary Personnel had it prior to when I got it and I had the bid for 12 years at minimum wage.  Can go out to quote to the 3 lowest bidders for skilled positions.

Tulsa Public Schools Labor Bid minimum wage for most positions.  Can go out to quote to the 3 lowest bidders for skilled labor.

Amusement Parks and Entertainment businesses.    

[AMP]

I have a degree in Welding Processes, and an associate's degree in Metal Fabrication.  I am a proficient MIG and TIG welder and weld both ferrous and non-ferrous metals.  I have operated CNC Mills, Radial Arm Drills, Mechanical Engine Lathes and Mills, Valve Grinding Machines, Boring Bars, Hones and other machines.

I worked as lead mechanic then as Service Manager and later Sales Manager for 14 years at a large 2,000 unit per year motorcycle dealership.  I worked for 15 years in the personnel industry, and for 4 years in the telecommunications industry.  

I have fabricated my own parts, built my own engines, ridden and campaigned Kawasaki Pro Stock and Funny Bike Nitro Fuel burning motorcycles, won a few Regional and National events and set a couple of records in doing so.  Built a few shortrack motorcycles, one took the the points championship for the past three years in two sanctions.    

I also have a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration.  And I have completed 100 hours of professional Sandler Presidents Club Sales Training courses at the Sandler Sales Institute.  

I took the courses in Welding eight years ago when I was supplying welders to industrial firms in Tulsa. I enjoyed welding so much I purchased a MIG and a TIG welder and an Oxy Acetylene torch kit.  

I have fabricated motorcycle and personal water craft trailers, built ornamental iron tables and chairs and gates.  We had a business that manufactured trailers for five years.

One can never have enough education.  

For the past nine years I have run my own business and do contract consulting and work for vairious clients in motorsports.  Earnings versus enjoying what one does and having freedom of running ones own business are a trade off.  Plus the market dictates growth and production of most manufacturing firms.  I will trade off higher paying gigs and productions for ones I enjoy doing.  I have bid on a few events I was not totally happy with, one was a Monster Truck Show in Texas that we ended up producing but did not make what the work was worth, and turned a few down due to long distance travel.  I used to like to travel 65,000 plus miles a year, but now I would rather earn less and stay closer to home base.

It is not all about how much one earns, I have earned well over $75,000 in a year, made over $20,000 in one night and have lost over $30,000 on a single rained on event as well.  

It is about finding your center being balanced and being comfortable with yourself.  You can wear your body out, joints, vertebrae, nerves and bones, performing too much labor type jobs, and damage your eyes and lungs welding.  Then you don't have much of a body left when it come retirement time.  LOL    

Most things I have found are a trade off.  

Gota take the pleasure with the pain.

[kakie]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by kakie

Personal income or per capita income is the sum off all assests for a given group of people in a specific geographic area.  This is what the discussion topic is about.

But what I said was accurate.  The rich may be getting richer, giving rise to per capita income,  while the median and low income are not growing as much,  if at all. Just to look at total income for a given group does not give a complete picture of how well people as a whole are doing.

One has to look at median household income to see if it has grown as well as total personal income.  The study I used is just one of many out there thats shows the rich are getting richer while the rest are stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Would you like more data? Not a problem for me to find it for you.

The last statistic I saw on median household income wasn't too good for the country as a whole.  

In 1967 the median household income was $35,379 and 40 years later it is only 46,326 and has gone down from 1999.

I stand by what I said and believe there is still confusion.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medhhinc.html

Personal income is not the sum of all assets.  Personal income is the sum of earnings, not what someone owns.  Personal net worth is the sum of what someone owns less their liabilities.

Average income is a fair barometer of how all people are doing.  What areas are you citing in respect to median household income?  The U.S.?

Cite all you want.  But are you wishing to talk about income or net worth?

Helps if you stay on topic with the rest of us otherwise it's too hard to get your point.

"Personal income is the income received by all persons from all sources. Personal income is the sum of net earnings by place of residence, rental income of persons, personal dividend income, personal interest income, and personal current transfer receipts. Net earnings is earnings by place of work (the sum of wage and salary disbursements (payrolls), supplements to wages and salaries, and proprietors' income) less contributions for government social insurance, plus an adjustment to convert earnings by place of work to a place–of–residence basis. Personal income is measured before the deduction of personal income taxes and other personal taxes and is reported in current dollars (no adjustment is made for price changes).

Per capita personal income is calculated as the personal income of residents of a given area divided by the resident population of the area. In computing per capita personal income, BEA uses the Census Bureau's annual midyear population estimates."

Taken directly from the source used in the first post.  You just need to read the report thoroughly.

[USRufnex]

Okay AMP.  I call BS.

I really get tired of reading posts that make conditions in Tulsa sound like Flint, MI.

I worked at a job in Chicago a few years back doing initial screenings and lots of 2nd telephone interviews of applicants nationwide for all sorts of jobs in many different industries... clerical, industrial, telecomm, trash companies, retail, assembly line, etc... etc... I knew how much starting wage was for the people who work at Masterfoods (M&M/Mars) in southside Chicago compared to Bama workers in Tulsa... never screened applicants for QuikTrip, but I can tell you their wages/payscale/benefits are far better than a certain national convenience store I did screen for...

I screened for companies hiring in cities across the country.

You get a feel for some of these job markets after screening applicant after applicant... I promise you, the job market in Tulsa has been better and closer to "full employment" than most other metro areas across the country.  The downside of this was a rather unique subset of applicants in Tulsa who seemed to have an elevated sense of job entitlement.  One of them even had the nerve to tell me to skip his interview because he had all the experience needed and to stop wasting his time.... he sounded shocked when I gave him the stock rejection of "Thank you for your interest... if we need additional information, we'll get in touch with you."  [}:)]

I remember the $3.35 min wage days.  Remember them well.  Remember working in the 80s for a temp company called Anybody Anytime which is now Labor Ready, I believe.  I remember shoving spot-welded hibachis into boxes all day in 120-degree heat with the only fan close to me shorted-out, and I wasn't even furnished with work gloves.  I remember washing dishes at ORU's new City of Faith hospital because they paid over $4 an hour (yay me!).

Perspective, please.  Compare the buying power of a minimum wage job in Tulsa versus the buying power of a "livable wage" job in San Francisco after rent/groceries/gas/parking/transit...

If you want to have a political discussion on how the national minimum wage should be higher and include cost of living adjustments, I'm your guy.  If somebody wants to talk about the increasing disparity of wealth in this country, count me in.  If you want to discuss the alarming consolidation of media in this country in newspapers and the Clear Channel effect on radio, by all means let's talk about it....

but...

THIS IS GOOD NEWS!  GOOD NEWS FOR TULSA!

There's no way to slice it differently.
If you think the world's goin' to he** in a handbasket, could the naysayers here at least look at these stats and compare them to the stats of most other metro areas?

Oh, and when I lived in Indy, the Indianapolis Star liked to run feelgood stories right around the time of the Indy500... why would anyone think the Tulsa World would (or should, for that matter) be any different for the PGA?

Since these stats seem to mean nothing to the naysayers, let me relate personal stories... when I moved to T-town to care for a relative in 2001, unemployment was 2.7%... I applied for six jobs and got offers from five of them... when unemployment doubled the following year, it was still less than the unemployment rate was for Chicago at the time.  I made the mistake of not buying a condo/house in the 90s in Chicago before the housing prices skyrocketed.  So, I decided a few years ago that I eventually needed to move to a more affordable city...  

Looked at Grand Rapids, MI... decided Michigan in general is not a good place to be.  Considered moving either to Rochester, NY or  Indianapolis with Tulsa running in third place as recently as a year ago.  I got cold feet about moving to Rochester due to the job market there... very well educated workforce, many of whom used to work for Kodak and Xerox and were now applying for call center jobs in a very tight job market... I looked at Indianapolis's rejuvenated downtown but chose Tulsa because there were far too many boarded up old homes ringing downtown in Indy-- homes at the price I was looking for but just too much abandoned property (crack houses?)... and Tulsa has more call centers than you can shake a stick at...

Rent for what I was looking for apartment-wise in Tulsa ran close to $100 per mo. less than in Indy and $150 per mo. less than a comparable apt. in Rochester.

A friend of mine came down from Chicago to visit for a week... had never been to this part of the country.  When I was driving around town, he immediately noticed the large number of billboards advertising for jobs.  He completely surprised me by asking about rentals and housing prices... and took home one of those real estate books from the grocery store... he laughed when I told him when we were in rush hour traffic... talked to me about how a short commute from work to home in Chicago can turn into an hour long driving nightmare... and told me he honestly worried that he'd never be able to buy any kind of house/condo in Chicagoland because the housing market was so messed up...

So, while the naysayers are splitting hairs by questioning the rise in average wages versus median wages... I'd like to point out that the combination of higher wages and low housing prices is positioning Tulsa to gain lots of new people who hopefully will stay longterm/permanently this time around...

[AMP]

Speaking of good ole Dan P Holmes I attened school with his grandson Jeff.  He went off to college in I believe it was Missouri.  Last I saw him was during college one weekend at his place in Missouri.  I had to drive that old Highway to Arkansas a few times, and I always think of Dan when making trips there after the new highway was built.  

A big Checkered Flag Salute to Dan P. Holmes !

Perhaps you missed the meaning of my statement. I said that those companies on the list paid minimum wage to the employees we serviced them with, and most paid their own entry level help minimum wage.  After probationary times many had a raise schedule in place, but others did not ant the help was always paid minimum wage as long as we serviced those accouts.  Many went to $5.00 per hour when the new minimum wage was introduced to avoid pricing and payroll problems when it raised to the $5.15 mark.  At that time they were above minimum wage.  However with the recent raise to $5.85 the companies that were paying their help $6.00 per hour are now finding themselves with hundreds of emplployees at or near the minimum wage.  That is the basis of my statement that there are many adults working for minimum wage today.  

We did the same type of business and had the same and similar accounts as you mention.  That is the true backbone of Tulsa, the majority of the small and mid size businesses that are homne owned and operated.  Nothing fancy, just hard work with no climate controled atmposphere.  There are many shops in Tulsa that have no Air Conditioning and have never had any.  Lots of Paint and Body, Auto Repair, Fiberglass, Pipe Manufacturing, Steel Fab Shops, Material Handling, Warehouse.  And of course landscape, asphalt, roofing and construction jobs.  Plus clean up and trash details at major events nnd the Ballpark.   Someone has to do those jobs.

Gloves are a presonal item like steel toed boots.  Most are not re-usable, therefore considered an item the employee needs to provide.  Same as Eye Protection.  Most get away with reissue of Hard Hats, they spray them with a disinfectant.  

I believe Dave and Paul had gloves and other safety gear for purchase at AA. Most the labor agencies have gloves and other safety equipment for sale, and most will deduct it from your earnings if you ask.  Other types of non-personal equipment is typically provided, and not charged for if returned in good condition.  

You most likely worked at a company on  2nd Street near Peoria I believe.  They made several different products from sheetmetal, and most the pay for the manufacturing and shipping areas was $3.35 per hour at his two plants.  

We always did walk throughs and safety inspectiosn prior to sending employees to businesses where I worked.  We had a safety consultant that took tours with us and we would not service certain types of businesses and certain departments for specific types of high risk jobs.  

Biggest advantege to working Temp Assignments is the ability to leave an assignment if you are not comfortable with it.  You should of reported the problem with not having proper gloves / hand protection to your supervisor at the company or asked to use the phone and called the agency.  

Other advantages with working Temp Jobs is the ability to try different jobs without having to commit prior to learning the company workings, the ability to obtain a cash advance for every days work and not having to wait up to three weeks for your first partial paycheck.  Ability to be hired if it is a temp to perm placement if you meet the criteria of the company and after the amount of time specified by the contract with that company.  Ability to get your foot in the door of hundreds of businesses that someone else had scouted out for you in advance.

Many of the mimimum wage types of jobs are revolving door positions.  Would not matter if they paid $10 or $15 per hour, not too many people would or could stay there.  Like the Lock Box folks that key punch in canceled checks at the banks.  Totally boring going no where jobs.  So, they mostly pay minimum wage, use temps and have high turnover.  There is normally another person seeking a job every day in most markets. At times the orders exceed the manpower, and at other times the manpower exceeds the orders, but the good thing is the inventory is rotated and comes in daily.  In hard times the agancies cut back on offices and staff, in good times they grow by opening new offices and adding staff.  

Most times the Staffing Industry has a good pluse of the economy in that market, as they are the first to have their inventory returned, and see new orders dropping off.  Based on the number of labor offices closed and cut back today, I would say either these are bad times with a lack of orders from businesses, or there is a major lack of inventory, or a combination of both.  The trend is specific at times, however by seeing four labor services close up on north sheridan and out by mingo, I would think the labor market is in a slump.      

The Staffing Industry holds contests for the best TV ad every year, and the winner one year played the Death March song in the background and had Vikings in a Boat rowing along and sweating.  One turned to the other and smiled.  The other asked him why on earth was he smiling, this job totally sucks.  He replied with a big smile, I am a Temp and I learned this moring I have a new assignment for tomorrow !  

The personnel agencies are similar to travel agents.  If you find a good one, they can lead you to some very good positions and quickly, depending on your skill level.  Especially professional head hunters that thrive on moving people around like a chess board.  They unplug someone from company A, plug them into company B, then fill the empty slot at Company A.  They rarely create a vacancy at a business they have contracts with, but rely on those that do not do business with them for locating their heads to sell to other businesses seeking that persons skill set, experience and rolodex files.  LOL  

If the market is as tight as some indicate on this board, it sounds like an ideal time to be in the Head Humter business.  May have to check out that portion of the market myself regarding that.    

Not all the jobs we filled were at mimimum wage, but many were.  Most people do not know the DC-10 design team was made up of several Temporary contract employees.  Many CAD/CAM and earilier Draftsmen and Design Engineers worked through contract staffing agencies in those days and still do today on contract basis.  

After all, most jobs are Temporary, aren't they? Even the President of the United States has limited terms.  

Majority of front and back office medical, legal, clerical and accounting staff work on contracts through staffing services or for PEOs which handle payroll, legals and work comp insurance and claims.  Most savvy business owners outsource the majority of their payroll to PEOs and agencies today.  Saves them big bucks in legals plus advantage of belonging to a larger group for discounts on medical, dental and vision insurance.  And they can keep their core employees white collar portion of their firms in a separate department to allow profit sharing and other perks that they would not be allowed if all employees were in one category.  

Sorry you experienced a problem with not having a pair of gloves that day.  I know the folks that ran that office, and they were all very considerate and aware of safety needs.  Afterall they were paying for your work comp insurance, and a claim affected their modifier on all their hours of all their employees, so it was to their benefit to make sure no one sustained any on job injuries.  

Note to others, when working labor jobs it is always wise to carry a pair of gloves, lunch, something to drink, hard hat, safety glasses, and wear steel toed boots when required. Take along sun screen and bug repellant when working outdoors, wear cotton long sleeve shirts and long cotton pants.   Always ask the recruiter or dispatcher of what the job entails and what special safety and personal equipment may be needed for the job requirements.  

[TheArtist]

AMP, and how is that so different in other cities or metros? There will always be people working for that areas minimum wage. The article states that this areas average was moving up more than a lot of other areas averages.  We know danged well that its not suddenly heaven here, just that we are doing better. Its the direction.

And Rufnex, I hear ya on the low unemployment rate seeming to bring out a sense of entitlement in people around here. Cant personally say anything about how we rate with other places in that respect. But it does seem that people here can too easily blow off a job, move on to another one, or as I have learned while trying to get my studio built and some things done around my house, its next to impossible to get people to even work. They are too busy and cant get to you, I even had a plumbing company at first give me an appt to come by and give a quote, then they didnt make it, then the owner I believe, finally told me that they were plum too busy and wouldnt be able to come by at all, sorry. Its been that way for just about everyone, The people doing the cement, the electricians, sheetrockers, etc. You either end up with bad workers or waiting and paying a good sum.  I had heard from many of my clients, who are often building new homes after moving here from other parts of the country, notably California, that the quality of many the workers here were abysmal.
I just kind of smiled and went on my way just thinking it was those peoples particular experience. Now that its happened to me so often, I get the picture. lol


I remember being fresh out of high school during the 80s bust. Everyone was thankful as heck to have any job and busted their but to keep it. Older adults and young people alike.

I have mentioned before the person that I was trying to help out and let them stay at my place for a while. He could go to one of those "job finding temp" places and easily get an above minimum wage job. And he didnt even have a high school diploma or GED. Many were for 10-14 dollars an hour. I say many because he would quit one job after another or get fired because of some stupid thing he did. "Oh I wanted to go on a date so I didnt go to work" type of thing. I was aghast at his lack of work ethic. And shocked that he could get so many decent paying jobs and then blow it. I even offered to help him get his GED and pay for him to take some classes at TCC if he did. He over slept and missed the GED class and test date. Just pitiful. I started to realize why some people "needed help". It was of their own making.


Very different world than what I was used to in my early 20s.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

Per capita or personal income that is discussed here is not the same as median income.  It is the income received by all persons from all sources. The sum of net earnings by place of residence, rental income of persons, personal dividend income, personal interest income, and personal current transfer receipts.

Therefore,  the rich may be getting a lot richer while those middle and low income folks are losing ground.  There is more data that needs to be taken into account - such as median income to get a better pictures. I don't have those figures handy but I'll look for them. I don't think it is as rosy as you think.  Consider the following:

"Over the last 20 years, the net worth of the top two percentile of American families nearly doubled, from $1,071,000 in 1984 to $2,100,500 in 2005. But the poorest quarter of American families lost ground over the same period, with their 2005 net worth below their 1984 net worth, measured in constant 2005 dollars.

The poorest ten percent of families actually had a negative net worth---more liabilities than assets. The poorest 5 percent of American households had a negative net worth of a little more than $1,000 in 1984, compared to nearly $9,000 in 2005.

"These findings show that the wealth gap is increasing steadily," said Stafford, a senior research scientist at ISR and director of the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, which is funded primarily by the National Science Foundation and the National Institute on Aging."

Shocking, isn't it?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070807171936.htm

That's sums up my opinion on this report. I am happy to report that wages and benefits are increasing in the building trades, due to HB 1804 IMO.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

AMP, and how is that so different in other cities or metros? There will always be people working for that areas minimum wage. The article states that this areas average was moving up more than a lot of other areas averages.  We know danged well that its not suddenly heaven here, just that we are doing better. Its the direction.

Bingo.  There will always be someone that is lowest on the totem pole, no matter how high that lowest point might be.

If you want to be negative, you could argue that if our average per capita income level is so high and increasing so fast, that might actually discourage companies from coming here, since they'd have to pay more.

But I take this as good news.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by kakie

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by kakie

Personal income or per capita income is the sum off all assests for a given group of people in a specific geographic area.  This is what the discussion topic is about.

But what I said was accurate.  The rich may be getting richer, giving rise to per capita income,  while the median and low income are not growing as much,  if at all. Just to look at total income for a given group does not give a complete picture of how well people as a whole are doing.

One has to look at median household income to see if it has grown as well as total personal income.  The study I used is just one of many out there thats shows the rich are getting richer while the rest are stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Would you like more data? Not a problem for me to find it for you.

The last statistic I saw on median household income wasn't too good for the country as a whole.  

In 1967 the median household income was $35,379 and 40 years later it is only 46,326 and has gone down from 1999.

I stand by what I said and believe there is still confusion.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medhhinc.html

Personal income is not the sum of all assets.  Personal income is the sum of earnings, not what someone owns.  Personal net worth is the sum of what someone owns less their liabilities.

Average income is a fair barometer of how all people are doing.  What areas are you citing in respect to median household income?  The U.S.?

Cite all you want.  But are you wishing to talk about income or net worth?

Helps if you stay on topic with the rest of us otherwise it's too hard to get your point.

"Personal income is the income received by all persons from all sources. Personal income is the sum of net earnings by place of residence, rental income of persons, personal dividend income, personal interest income, and personal current transfer receipts. Net earnings is earnings by place of work (the sum of wage and salary disbursements (payrolls), supplements to wages and salaries, and proprietors' income) less contributions for government social insurance, plus an adjustment to convert earnings by place of work to a place–of–residence basis. Personal income is measured before the deduction of personal income taxes and other personal taxes and is reported in current dollars (no adjustment is made for price changes).

Per capita personal income is calculated as the personal income of residents of a given area divided by the resident population of the area. In computing per capita personal income, BEA uses the Census Bureau's annual midyear population estimates."

Taken directly from the source used in the first post.  You just need to read the report thoroughly.

Thanks for catching up with the rest of us and the lesson on what I was all ready explaining to you in a summarized fashion.  I read the report thoroughly.  It was about net worth, not net earnings.

At any rate, I still fail to see why people continue to mine negatives out of a clear positive.

The article you cited had nothing to do with the good earnings news in Tulsa.  It was relating to how the net worth of certain groups of Americans is shrinking.  Assets - debts = net worth.  So there are a bunch more people in debt.  You can't necessarily relate that to lower income without examining how much debt is created by purchasing lifestyle wants instead of life's necessities on credit and having the discipline to pay off those debts in a timely fashion.

I believe you would see a correlation between the increase in personal debt since the 1960's and the dropping of personal net worth.  People are buying homes out of their price range with absurd mortgage arrangements, using credit cards to buy groceries, clothing, and mocha lattes, and purchasing vehicles on 8 year notes.  That will give you a decrease in net worth.

[aoxamaxoa]

Mortgage situation has changed dramatically the last week. Terms are going to be very difficult for anyone making less than $100,000 a year who want anything in excess of $400,000. Many are over leveraged already.

That is not a negative comment. Just reality setting in.....