Income up in Tulsa

[USRufnex]

You characterized your industry as staffers for "the backbone of Tulsa."

I know differently.

You defended your friends and backwoods temp-agency exploitative cronies-- how many of them bought a new speedboat or RV this year on the backs of those working class "losers"?  How HORRIBLE was it for you to be forced to pay your workers a whole friggin' 5.85 per hour?    Sorry, today's 5.85 per hour has less buying power than my 3.35 per hour had back in '82...

Please don't pretend to care about the working poor while defending an industry that has a huge economic incentive for Tulsa to be barefoot and pregnant...

Temp agencies are largely recession-proof.

They have a job... a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it... that much I understand.

So, a few cheap-aZZ temp agencies started up in response to Tulsa's post-9/11 recession are going out of business in this city?  That doesn't reflect Tulsa's economic failures... it reflects SUCCESS.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

I doubt if Bob Funk had much to do with a few start up temp agencies on North Sheridan closing up shop.  Nothing against Express, matter of fact the assistant manager of AA worked for us for 16 years prior to moving to Express, where he is today.  I served as the Legislative Representative for the Oklahoma Staffing Industry for three years, and was Vice President for four.  

Would not be so quick to point fingers at the temp agencies that pay daily advances.  Withoug them there would be a much larger gap between the homeless and the day labores.   Remember at that time the companies they serviced were who set the pay rates, not the temp services.  

Trust me, the margins of profit are driven by the total wage, so the higher skilled and higer paied employees earned the agency and it's staff more income.  Most employees in that industry as with the majority of sales driven industries are paid on a commission basis. Just like automotive sales and mechanics.  Perform or go hungry, there is no guarantee.

There are all kinds of jobs that need to be performed in a city, some are better than others.  As I stated, we filled mostly Skilled and Semi Skilled positions, but also had many minimum wage job orders that came in.  Just like a store, some folks want Porter House, others choose not so lean hamburger meat, but most stores offer a wide variety. Why Baskin Robbins had 51 Flavors.    

Most people would be very suprised to see how many people on a daily basis are working for Temp agencies in Tulsa.  We had over 3,200 employees in a single year, and we were one of 35 agencies in Tulsa at the time.

                                              I am choking back the puke. Preaching that temp agencies are somehow altruistic benefactors is completely absurd. If anything, they promote predatory pay day loan companies, subprime mortgages, larger numbers of employees that lack health insurance and a large second class of slave wage service worker serfs.

[RecycleMichael]

Some of the best jobs are temp jobs.

Look at President of the United States.

[TheArtist]

Niiiice to know.  All my jobs are temp jobs.  

That "friend I tried to help out" who went to the temp agencies to find work. They kept getting him some really decent jobs, and from what I could tell, they would have been long term positions. I was actually amazed at how quickly they could put him in another job after he blew it at the one before. They weren't temporary jobs, sadly it was just that he was a temporary worker. I think they were starting to get frustrated with him. He was making THEM look bad.

[PreserveSouthTulsa.com]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

Three Beverage Bottlers for Merchandisers that brought product from the back of the grocery stores to the shelves.  They were paid minimum wage plus mileage and fuel.  

Interesting.  I worked in the grocery business for nearly ten years.  My wife was a merchandiser for a cookie company and made over $30K per year.  One of my best frineds worked for one the major bottling companies locally as a merchandiser and made $25K per year.  He did exactly as you suggest.  He took product from the back room and stocked the shelves and displays.  He wouldn't have taken the job if it paid minimum wage.
I wrked for two different major baking companies and made anywhere from $45K to $80K per year.  
Before that, I worked for a local gocery chain that was notorious for paying low wages, but I still made $7.00 per hour when the minimum wage was $3.35.
Before that I made $4.10 per hour at a local mexican theme restaurant, as a dishwasher.  Only the bus boys made minimum...and they got tips.  
The thing is, unless you have absolutely no skills or ambition, you can find work for more than $5.85 per hour.

[okcpulse]

quote:Like I trust THAT government cronie staffed agency.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070810/pl_nm/economy_bush_dc_2;_ylt=AiZJVwJN0JPJHn6DJH_LKYEE1vAI

I was NEVER on Tulsa's back! I was on Whirled info's back. I might be hopping onto Bushco's back. K?

So you are saying that the simple mathematical procedure of dividing the total income of a metropolitan area by its total population is compromised by a cronie staffed agency?  

Does that mean if someone else did the equation you would be more likely to pay attention?  $37,000 is a per capita figure, not household income.

Per capita income has always been the best way to measure the economic well being of a given geopgraphical area.  For instance, say I make $60,000 a year, my wife makes $40,000 and we have three children. Our total household income is $100,000.  Divided by five, our household per capita income would be $20,000.

[AMP]

Back in the infancy of staffing, it appeared to many some of the agencies were just slinging people and filling orders. Those were the fast growing and exlosive need driven industrial halls.  Operating in the background and out of sight were the skilled, clerical, legal, medical and professional staffing services. Many were located downtown, in high rise buildings and out of sight with no signs or street entrances.  Manpower, and Kelley Girl, were among some of the first ones.   Since then that industry has moved along very quickly and adapted with the modern age of digital processing.

Staffing Industry is much more complex than many people precieve from the outside.  Back when Tulsa was smaller and dependent on just a few Industries for jobs, there was not much need for services such as staffing.  However, as the city grew and other industries opened here and jobs became available there were more needs.  

Then as the oil bust hit, there were displaced workers that needed to locate other jobs and quickly. That was the Staffing Industries forte' and they helped thousands of Tulsan located jobs that fit their skills in the crunch times.  As data based IBM computers came available and software such as SkilMatch, written specifically for matching skill sets and other criteria, became more sophisticated, the ablilty for matching the exact candidate to the skilled position was refined down to a science.  Location, zip code, salary range, experience, skill codes, employers benefits all are keyed into the data base.  Sure it can be GIGO, but if handled properly with background checks, and other requirements from the employers completed and filed in the data base, those systems can make an accurate match of a dozen qualifired candidates, quicker than you can say Tom Thumb.  

The long term full time employees working for some of the companies we serviced may earn more, and most positions read starting at, some people are better negotiators in job interviews than others.  Keep in mind the buyers of labor are woking with a budget, and the total billing on labor includes all the legals on the employee.  Liability insurance coverage is another cost of labor and FUTA, SUTA, FICA are also included.  

I have always been a advocate of having additional boxes printed on employees paychecks that indicated the total cost of the employee to the company.  The employee only sees their gross pay/hours.  Then decuctions for State and Federal Tax and perhaps Medicaid, and their portion of the FICA.  But they do not see the employers 50% contribution of the FICA, FUTA, SUTA  (State and Federal Unemployment Taxes), Worker Comp Insurance Premiums, Cost of liability insurance, Cost of payroll preperation, bank fees and other hidden expenses that are directly related to legals and payroll which make up the total cost of the employee to the business. Plus business's portion of any benefit packages provided by the business. If employees could see the large percentage of revenue on the hidden side of the payroll stub, I feel they would have a better understanding of where they fit in.    

Work comp for many industrial positions may run up to as high as $200 per $100 in payroll such as folks working above 10 feet off the ground but less than two stories up. Reason, checks to their entire faimily under 18 if they fall typically.  Over two stories, the rates reduce tremendously, reason . . one death benifit check.  Reason for discussion, many people are confused why professional office type positions may pay higher than industrial and construction jobs.  Well, when the cost of Insurance is double what the wage is, that has to be your first clue.  

And Work Comp insurance as well as unemployment insurance are graded on a modifier basis.  Similar to driving points for auto insurance.  If an company has a high number of claims - accidents, they will have a higher modifier percentage which means they pay a higher rate for their work comp insurance.  Every job is in a catagory, and they all have different rates based on the number of claims in that catagory nationwide.  Clreical jobs are around 50 cents per $100 in payroll, Industrial jobs range from around $10 per $100 up to $200 per $100 in payroll.  And may be higher based on the experience level of that business.  In addition, in Oklahoma the state provided Work Comp has required specific industries to pay increased modifiers.

In Oklahoma the overall Unemployment Insurance premiums can and have increased with the overall condition of the unemployment claims state wide.  The condition of the business and how many unemployment claims they experience also effects their rate.  If a business for instance has 300 employees and lays off 50, the modifier will go into effect and raise the cost on the remaining 250 employees payroll for around two years or more depending on the status of the company and other factors.  This increase in payroll cost may very well put some businesses into bankruptcy court as many operate on small margins, especially during lean times.  

Enter the staffing industry.  Had the business owner contracted with a Staffing Service for those 50 employees, when they were no longer needed, they would not of experienced a modifier on their unemployment fees.   Plus the 50 people would have a much quicker opportunity to be placed at another assignment as the staffing business incentitive is two sided, one to avoid an unemployment adjustment, and two to earn additional profit by placing the individuals at other businesses that are in a swing of need for labor at that time.  

I provided additional Merchandisers, that worked for minimum wage, for the Bottling Industry, I went with them for the start up.  We had up to 30 Beverage Merchandisers working for the bottling companies during peak times, Memorial Day weekend, Labor Day Weekend, Fourth of July, and other times when the weather would be extremely hot during the summer.   The did pull ups at Albertsons, Reasors, Wal Mart, Warehouse Market, Buds, Piggly Wiggly, Homeland and most major grocery stores in NE Oklahoma area.  I trust there were many people working at the beverage business that earned well above minimum wage.  However there were also those that did not, and we provided those.  

One needs to keep in mind there are thousands of positions in a city the size of Tulsa that are typically for a specific amount of time, and not long term. They are need-driven, and the temp agencies provide the needed labor just as water is delivered from a tap.  If you need additional water, you simply turn on the tap, no longer need it turn off the tap.  

If there is no additional pool of labor on a as soon as needed - just in time basis, the industries in that area may no longer be competitive in the World Market.  Many times we paid and billed much higher rates, depending on the need, and availability of labor.   This market can be on a roller coaster swing of high or low, demand versus supply.  In the 1980s there was very high demand and very high supply for some reason.  

Majority of people that can read and comprehend the language know the length of their assignment, what it pays and that they need not run out and make a loan on an automobile or home, based on their working status.  Far better to have a grip on your job status and budget, than to go into debt not knowing what the clouds on the horizon hold in store.  Just the opposite with many so-called full time jobs, not too many people know if their job will be there tomorrow, especially in Oklahoma's roller coaster economy over the past.  Oklahoma has "Employment at Will" laws which allows an employer to terminate the employee for no stated reason.  We also have the "Right to Work" law which eliminated many attorney run labor unions from forcing employees to pay union dues and comply with joining a union if they choose not to.  

Oklahoma provides freedoms for both the businesses owners and the employees.  In Oklahoma the employee has the right to choose where they work, and they can quit their job at any moment with no notice required.   No one is forced to work anywhere in Oklahoma, and most business owners choose who stays on their payroll. If you choose to open your own business in America you have the right to, and you may succeed or fail, but you have the opportunity to try, and more than once.  Bankruptcy laws are written to protect those willing to risk going into business for themselves.   Nothing I dislike more is someone complying about their job status, lack of pay or benefits.  I work for myself, so when I drove to Kansas and to Texas and earned $3.20 per hour working, that is because I did that to myself.  No one else was responsible.  I was just laughing because we had two lousy turnouts, all my staff got paid, and the bills were paid, but I ended up with $3.20 per hour for my time that week. Not complaining, I am responsible if my events succeed or fail and no one else.  

No one is forcing folks to work.  The United States is a Free Enterprise market.  

Benefit programs are available at most temp agencies in Tulsa, however the majority of employees do not choose to take the benefit plans.  Most have 401K plans available as well.  The benefits are paid pre-tax and there are savings to be made by using the employee pre-tax benefit programs.   However, many temp workers have a working spouse that already has health insurance, and a family must choose which plan they want, most medical plans will not allow spouses to have separate insurance companies.  Their spouse may have a much better plan, so they stick with that one.  

Majority of employees working in Oklahoma are covered by workers compensation insurance while on the job.  Not true in family owned business and partnerships where there are no other employees.  

Typically many small businesses are owned by older folks why have saved up enough cash to go into business for themselves, and they are too old to be hired with benefits as the insurance for them is very expensive at their age. That is one of the reasons so many people who are older open their own businesses, many because they are no longer employable at firms that provide major benefit packages. So in reality, many small business owners/partners may also fall into the un-insured category if their budgets cannot afford the coverage.  

Worker Compensation Insurance is typically is far better than most major medical accident products available.  Work Comp pays 100% of pharmaceutical, surgery, diagnostics, x-rays, hospitalization and other procedures.  Majority of health insurance plans be it PPO, HMO or other typically have deductibles and co-pays.  They all look good at first, but when it comes to having an ailment and being treated, then receiving the bills most don't turn out to be as good as most folks think.  

Added to the fact that most people that are employee status, own a vehicle and have medical insurance are paying for three premiums of insurance coverage.  

1. Majority of the time emplolyees are at their job, most are covered by Worker Comp Insurance.  They pay for it indirectly if it were not a part of the compensation then they may receive that additional pay in cash in hiring negotiations.  

2. Most people have an automobile policy and most have Under Insured coverage that covers them from medical claims in the event the other driver is under insured.  

3. Some may have a major medical policy, which seems to cover them when they are sleeping, and after they arrive at home from work and up until they depart from home returning to work during work dsys.  Work comp may cover you while in transit many times, especially if your employment is mobile and you are told where to park.  Also job stress related incidents may be covered under work comp.  The Auto policy or someone elses under-insured policy may pay for claims while you are in transit.  

Majority of people may be way over insured with three or more premiums and products covering them at specific times of the day.  System is broken !

Bottom line is many people are paying for three products provided by the insurance companies, which seem to overlap in coverage.  

Your medical insurance plans typically do not cover you while your are on the clock of your employer.  And, you may also not be covered while operating your motor vehicle by your medical plan.  Many medical employee plans have eliminated hazardous activities such as motorsports, sky and scuba diving, water skiing, personal water-craft, motorcycle and atv activities.   Even some employment contracts have stipulations against the contracted employee participating in such activities.  Always stuck me as comical that a Professional Football player that makes his living in a physical contact sport was also banned from riding a motorcycle while under contract.  

Part time, Just in Time labor is and always has been in demand, be it professionals such as legal staff, attorney, mechanical engineer, design CAD CAM team, clerical, medical staff, skilled or general labor.

The Staffing Industry is depended on daily 24/7.  There are trained personnel, on call 24/7 for fiduciaries, the three major credit card companies, and airline reservation centers.  These regional emergency teams are kept in place in the event there is a major problem with the Internet networks, or a major fiber optic cut.

Granted there are a few day labor divisions that have very explosive growth and sometimes it is created by explosions. Those are the ones in the public eyc most the times that respond to emergency situations such as providing the majority of personnel to clean the World Trade Tower back during the truck bomb explosion.  Or to clean up following the tornadoes that hit in the Catoosa area, or to help clean up material at ORU following a major electrical power grid explosion.

Not sure what another alternative for STAT labor would be, but if there is a better mouse trap, trust me some energetic person in the US will open up a business tomorrow to compete with what is already out there.  

That is the American dream.  

[AMP]

Thinking back, I have only worked a couple of  jobs before I turned 16, that I was paid by the hour.  All the rest have been compensated by what I produce, comission basis pay.  

[cannon_fodder]

AMP:

You mentioned Works Comp, and there... you hit the nail no the head.  Oklahoma pays TWICE of our neighboring states in workers comp fees.  For heavy industry it approaches 12% of wages paid... TWELVE PERCENT!  Neighboring states are on the 5-7% range.  Geee, why wouldn't industry want to move here?

As well as all the other expenses for employees, the compensation package easily raises to 50% of salary.  Brutal.  It punishes a company for wanting to hire more people.  Paying someone $50K a year costs the company closer to $75k.  Coupled with the unemployment & other things you mentioned and it is indeed the laws of the state that drive the demand for staffing agencies.

However, at their best they provide a needed service.  Often, the best employees of those agencies are bought off by employers.

[AMP]

Glad you returned to the discussion CF.

Just as most people would not attempt to perform Lasik surgery on their own eyes, it sometimes amazed me that companies would rely 100% on their HR departments to spend their valuable time recruiting new hires.  

Effective HR departments energy should be spending time focusing on reducing the costs of and improving the features of their benefits programs, handling internal personnel issues, looking into reducing their insurance costs, finding and managing 401s, scheduling vacations and placing orders for replacement temps to fill in for those on vacation, finding ways of providing additional safety training and education for the workforce they are managing.

Outsourcing recruiting professionals handle interviews, pre-screening, post-screening, background checks, drug screens and other time consuming efforts on a daily basis.  They have a large advantage by placing ads in local recruiting papers, newspapers and other sources every week of the year. They work with the hub and wheel of the community in recruiting, locating sources of attracting people from all walks of life.  People in the market learn to know their name and that builts market awarness, which makes the recruiter and their business stand out for where to go for jobs.  An individual business placing an ad for new hires or replacments may be lost in the mix.  The HR people inside have the tools and training to do the job, however it is always hard to beat the seat time and experience that Professional Recuriters have.  Hard to beat a professional who has skills, knowledge and years of recruiting experience when it comes to handling specific jobs.  

Actually some numbers on work comp insurance are much higher than what you quoted for specific job duties.  The four digit codes are available from the National Council on Compensation Insurance, Inc.

At one time in Oklahoma all staffing businesses were forced to operated under a beginning 1.75 modifier for all their workers compensation insurance.  Some were higher, and it took two years to earn a lower modifiers.

One only needs to travel to NW Arkansas to see what the results of the difference in the cost of Work Comp between these two states.  

Couple of good sites on these subjects.

https://www.ncci.com/NCCI/index.aspx
http://www.centralmistaffing.com/trends.htm
 

[rwarn17588]

Here's a something I've always wanted to ask about workers' comp:

I don't completely buy into the notion that lawyers are the sole reason that workers' comp rates are so high in Oklahoma.

Is it because many companies in the state are too careless about safety?

Is it because Oklahoma has more lesser-educated people and thus more of them are working blue-collar, hazardous jobs?

Is it this less-educated populace that takes more unsafe risks on the job?

Is it all of these things?

[AMP]

Those and other factors.  The amount of the wage seems to be directly associated with many work comp claims in Oklahoma.  Could be the mindset of folks working for low wages and seeing others kicked back taking time off while on disability income.  The 3/4 of wages to most people is low, but to Joe Six Pack and others it may be a vacation.

Also keep in mind that when the minimum wage increased to $4.25 majority of the folks earning less were not required to pay Federal Income tax as they did not pierce the lowest level required.  Once the new increase went into effect, Congress then enacted the Earned Income program, which helped to soften the blow that the workers felt as they became bona fide tax payers at that new minimum wage.  

Had Congress not enacted that bill, the actual take home increase for those workers was around 10 to 15 cents per hour depending on their tax exemption status.  Married with children or single etc.  So they were being paid $4.25 per hour versus the 10 year $3.35.  At $3.35 less the 7% FICA their take home was around $3.10 per hour filing M-8 or exempt student.   However when the $4.25 minimum started people that filed single or with less dependents were now only now taking home $3.20 to $3.30 due to federal tax withholding.  Prior to that only around 7% FICA that was required to be with held from minimum wage 40 hour payroll checks of workers filing.  Others that filed single or with less dependents saw even less of an increase from the increase.      

That minimum wage increase in reality was the largest modern day tax increase on small and mid size business owners in the history of the United States. Other than when Congress enacted the Federal Income Tax Codes initially.

Keeping in mind the legally required fees on payroll is a percentage of total payroll and not a fixed number like Gasoline Tax. But that is for the political forum.

After a few calculations, most discovered if they worked less they earned more.  By taking off a day or two every week and not working 40 hours they hit the top of the Bell Curve which allowed them to gain the most from the Earned Income rebate.  

Time off during an on job injury filled in time and did not effect the earned income credit as the insurance re-imbursement payments are typically non-taxable income.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Here's a something I've always wanted to ask about workers' comp:

I don't completely buy into the notion that lawyers are the sole reason that workers' comp rates are so high in Oklahoma.

Is it because many companies in the state are too careless about safety?

Is it because Oklahoma has more lesser-educated people and thus more of them are working blue-collar, hazardous jobs?

Is it this less-educated populace that takes more unsafe risks on the job?

Is it all of these things?

Couldn't say for certain.  Our company falls into one of the very highest "risk" categories for WC.  We have not had a major WC claim in years- probably 15 to 20 at least and no permanent disabilities attributed directly to working for us for the 50 years our company has been around.  

We don't hear of many accidents involving our line of work in the state and it's a tight enough group that you usually know what's going on w/ competitors and their employess either directly or from common customers or vendors.   Usually premiums are a somewhat of a reflection of actual claims experience within a given risk group.  I don't know if they use the national numbers then apply a multiplier or what.

All I can say for certain is it doesn't make Oklahoma near as attractive as it should be for manufacturing work.

[AMP]

I normally charge a  consulting fee for this information, but I will give you this much for free as it may help improve the economy in Oklahoma.  

Typically the rates are derived from the NCCII four digit codes.  Each job duty is listed, there are pages of them in the NCCII book I own.

You locate the exact job duty and the book provides the multiplier used.  They are based on National experiences.

The Oklahoma State Workers Comp Insurance Fund requires companies to rate their workers under their Industry and typically will not allow clerical and other job classifications to be rated at their level.  This to me is wrong and causes Oklahoma to be less competitive in manufacturing and construction, using those higher rating codes for support people.  If the support people were located in a separate building off site, then they may allow them to be rated separately.

Private Work Comp providors normally rate each job description and charge accordingly.  If you do not have the current NCCII code book for job classifications, then you are at the mercy of the insurance providor and have no clue what to look for when purchasing the coverage, or if your employees are coded properly.

One could be paying way more for improper coded employees than necessary.

A word to the wise is sufficent.

[AMP]

I spent a winter weekend keying all the descriptions, codes and rates out of the NCCII book into a database so I can quickly search for the proper code, rate and description.