Elm Creek, Other Tributary Development

[Conan71]

I thought I'd start a new topic on Arkansas River tributary development since it's an interesting concept and might be able to provide the "cozy waterway" concept we were talking about on the River Infrastructure thread.

Would Michael Bates be so kind as to post the map of the Elm Creek layout?

[MichaelBates]

Thanks for starting a new topic about this, Conan.

The premise is that successful waterside development in other cities is along relatively narrow channels, much narrower than the Arkansas River at Tulsa. The San Antonio River at the Paseo del Rio is about 30' wide. The same is true of the artificial Bricktown Canal. Zink Lake on the Arkansas River is 30 to 40 times wider. One of the problems Bing Thom was trying to solve with "The Channels" was creating a water feature narrow enough that you could wave at a friend on the other side.

But this sort of arrangement is possible in Tulsa without massive modifications to the Arkansas. We could reopen one of the buried tributaries to the Arkansas.

Many years ago, creeks in and near downtown were converted to storm sewers -- buried underground for most of their length.

One of these is Elm Creek. The main branch flows underground from 7th and Utica west to Centennial Park where it joins another branch fron the north. It is open in Centennial Park's new lake, then goes back underground through a 7' high tunnel along a south-southwesterly course, through the Gunboat Park neighborhood (11th to 13th, Elgin & Frankfort), to 16th and Boston, 18th and Baltimore, then along the western edge of Veterans Park. Elm Creek empties into the Arkansas beneath the 21st St. bridge.

In 1991, John Neas did a concept drawing of opening up the lower part of Elm Creek. Ignore the buildings and the street closings, and focus on where the channel would be. It would create a natural transition and connection between the clubs of 18th & Boston (SoBo) and River Parks.




More recently, the 6th Street task force came up with proposal to canalize Elm Creek between Centennial Park and a proposed detention pond further east, as a part of the stormwater management plan for the neighborhood. In this sketch, from the 6th Street Infill Plan, the canal is shown going down 7th St, creating a new location for a public promenade. It's my understanding that they've also discussed rerouting the creek down the center of 6th Street.




I've also seen, but can't find, sketches of a water feature on the Gunboat Park segment of Elm Creek, part of a grad school urban design project.

Another possibility for unburying a creek to be used as a waterside promenade: Cat Creek flows beneath Archer Street downtown, then bends southwest, following the railroad tracks (or more likely the railroad tracks followed it), emptying into the river under the I-244 bridge. The section along Archer could be opened up.

Crow Creek is not buried, but it is hidden and hemmed in by rock walls. It is the brook for which Brookside was named, and it would make a natural link between the river and Brookside. One concept would have replaced Place One Apartments (whatever it's called now) with a mixed use development, with paths linking that along Crow Creek to River Parks and to the site of the old Boy Scout Center just north of the Creek on Peoria. I've heard that the county  commissioners' approval of a conduit loan to renovate the apartment complex put an end to that concept.

[Double A]

Crow Creek also links to Philbrook. Out of the three scenarios it sounds like Crow Creek development would give the most bang for the buck and connect with the most attractions in the nearest proximity.

[TheArtist]

Yes I would love to see the Pearl District plan implemented. Instead of a blighted area that effectively seperates nice ones now, it would connect, TU, Downtown, Cherry Street and the Utica Square. It would promote and open up a large area for infill development and help create a huge and beautiful central core for the city.














While not as "sexy" as river development, I think it is an important thing to do. It could definitely take future development in the area up from average to above average. We should do that for Tulsa.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Crow Creek also links to Philbrook. Out of the three scenarios it sounds like Crow Creek development would give the most bang for the buck and connect with the most attractions in the nearest proximity.

I agree and was all excited about the possibilities, but with the way the neighborhood raised heck last time it was brought up, I dont think it can happen. And like Bates mentioned, at about the same was when they started the renovation plan for the apartments. Just made my heart sink.

At least with the Pearl, you have a bunch of people trying to fight for it to happen. Plus they worked to make it a creative part of the cities master plan for flood control.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Crow Creek also links to Philbrook. Out of the three scenarios it sounds like Crow Creek development would give the most bang for the buck and connect with the most attractions in the nearest proximity.

I agree and was all excited about the possibilities, but with the way the neighborhood raised heck last time it was brought up, I dont think it can happen. And like Bates mentioned, at about the same was when they started the renovation plan for the apartments. Just made my heart sink.

At least with the Pearl, you have a bunch of people trying to fight for it to happen. Plus they worked to make it a creative part of the cities master plan for flood control.

Yep, big NIMBY problem with the Crow Creek crowd, and that's a shame.  

Looks like the Elm Creek alignment would affect fewer homeowners, which means fewer objections unless there are any north Maple Ridge homeowners who would be impacted.

I am really shocked at how few people I talk to who have bothered to look close at the Centennial Park development other than driving by it on the IDL.  I've even talked to long-time Tulsan's who are only vaguely aware that any renovation and improvement has happened around there.

Sorry to be such a "late-comer" to the idea of narrow waterways (I just can't say "channels" without a smirk now).  

It was sort of a "burning bush" moment when I was at New River a week and a half ago and saw the parallels from other waterways in other cities I've visited which were vibrant.  

I figured Bing Thom was talking about us plebes waving from the west bank to the fortunate few  up in their high-rise condos near the east bank and didn't see the coziness of the project.  I guess I let the messengers cloud my comprehension of the Channels a bit too much.  

If the city would undertake such a project with a general obligation bond, I'd be tempted to vote for it, even with our crappy roads which are being ignored.

This alignment would also  bring something to an area of downtown which is largely dead space except for parking during the day.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

I've also seen, but can't find, sketches of a water feature on the Gunboat Park segment of Elm Creek, part of a grad school urban design project.

You can find the Gunboat images here:

http://tulsagrad.ou.edu/studio/gunboat/gunboatcomposite.pdf

[waterboy]

I can see great things with the Elm Creek plan and would carry that banner. But only if its part of a more general plan that other creeks, notably Crow Creek, Cherry Creek, Joe Creek and any others that have been covered or ignored are included. It is personalized development for each neighborhood that can be accomplished without the large investment in low water dams and their attendant problems. Of course because of that it has a low % of being taken seriously. Who would lead the charge?

Why would we let the mostly cosmetic remodel of Place One stop that development? Buy the land, pay the mortgage and make better use of the land. I got the feeling at the time that we didn't want to pay the price that the process would involve (assuaging the neighbors, paying the higher price for apartments).

There is another potential canal that would energize as well but I am hesitant to even mention it. People who spout new ideas have generally been marginalized during this process. The first reaction is "that can't be done", the next is "no one else wants that" followed by "that's too expensive". Then we see other cities doing it and we wonder how that happened. How many other potential ideas are out there that simply got ignored because of the momentum of the "dam the river" crowd? That is the fallacy of public input that the v2025 cabal touts.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

I've also seen, but can't find, sketches of a water feature on the Gunboat Park segment of Elm Creek, part of a grad school urban design project.

You can find the Gunboat images here:

http://tulsagrad.ou.edu/studio/gunboat/gunboatcomposite.pdf

Re-doing Gunboat would be amazing.  That was the first time I remember being glad a liquor store/bar closed near me.  Phat Phillies needs some good neighbors.

[Townsend]

WB,

I can't speak for others but I'm always interested in your ideas.  What other canal do you have in mind?

[Conan71]

WB, I can see where Joe, Cherry, and Crow Creek  could all have value as public gathering places or parks w/o commercial development that the neighborhoods abhor, if that is the sticky issue with them.  Talk about an improvement in the quality of life in a neighborhood.

Please tell us what your other idea is.  I can't shoot it down till I know what you are talking about. []

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

WB,

I can't speak for others but I'm always interested in your ideas.  What other canal do you have in mind?

Are you prepared for the process? Guffaws...discouragement....dismissal?

Let's just say for a moment that the Nimby movement could be managed. This may be one of the few times in recent history that it could. Why? Because there is strong movement back into the city by people with money. Witness the controversy of infill development. That can bolster the value of existing homes. As one poster pointed out, there is something to be gained by all the players in this game. Some strong alliances by developers, neighborhoods and city coucilors could make it manageable. Right now they are uneasy with each other.

Imagine that you have the Kaiser types stop lunching with status quo movers and shakers for awhile and spend more time with activists in each of these old hoods. More time with Lucky Lamons, Bates, TN members... less time with INCOG/Miller/Simonson/Taylor/Lorton....

Then refine the idea of canals that apparently has been around since the early nineties. I stumbled upon the concept the same way Bing Thom did. Walk or jog the areas and let it hit you.

Then take into account why the old part of the city is built the way it is. Its the railroads. The railroads had to make their routes as flat as possible because heavy locomotives don't climb hills well. That means they took naturally undulating topography and raised the elevation or flattened it out to achieve a gradual incline or decline. Of course the area surrounding them still follows a downward incline towards the river. The rr beds are so well designed and built that a hundred years later some are still in operation and the others are now paths.

Most all railroads in this area were constructed for industrial purposes on land that was not residential at the time. Homes that sprung up near the rr were not usually the best in the hood. Gentrification and the closing of these industrial based rails has saved those homes.

Now think big. The most powerful, beautiful neighborhood in town has an abandoned rail road bed that runs right down its backside. Its remains start near 18th & Boston. Near the Elm Creek path. It has deep canal like ditches on each side of it that are engineered to empty into Zink Lake right next to the largest undeveloped piece of real estate on the river, the Blair Mansion. It crosses over into West Tulsa where the city owns a huge parcel of land soon to be vacated.  

Put water into it. This shallow canal could be tastefully, designed for low impact usage of electric ferryboats connecting restaurants and shopping areas as well as gathering spots on both sides of the river. It could connect with both an Elm Creek branch as well as a Crow Creek branch. It is separated from most of the neighborhood on its upper reach by high sides. As it drops it becomes higher than the surrounding hood and would need to be walled off. It can be done if we have the guts.

[pmcalk]

WB--where is Cherry Creek?

[RecycleMichael]

Cherry Creek is a west bank tributary located near 47th and Elwood. It can be seen from I-44 looking back to the north by the wastewater lift station.

[Conan71]

Cherry Creek was registering with me, I just couldn't place it.  D'oh!  I drive over it every day. [)]

That would be cheaper land acquisition, for a west bank stream development though the industrial surroundings might not make it as attractive for comm'l development, but you wouldn't have a PITA with a neighborhood association.  FAIK, the Cherry Creek Mobile Home park is the only housing along the route until it winds back behind Garden City near the refinery.  Tie that in with a 41st. St. ped or ped/vehicle bridge, and that might become viable.  

Only thing I can think of with Cherry Creek which might stop that cold is there's either a major gas or oil pipeline right of way on the east bank off W. 41st.  Not sure if that wraps around toward Elwood or goes over the creek and on south.  

Waterboy- great idea, BTW.