River vote...county sets rules

[Breadburner]

How is that trash to energy plant working.....

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

If you're going to come on here and purposefully put forth a lie, get called on it, then back up to a plethora of other garbage to defend your position, your position is worthless.

What lie did I put forth, MichaelC?

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

If you're going to come on here and purposefully put forth a lie, get called on it, then back up to a plethora of other garbage to defend your position, your position is worthless.

What lie did I put forth, MichaelC?

Maybe it's not a lie, maybe Wrinkle was crediting you with something you didn't say.  Maybe your brain is as bad as mine.  Don't know the circumstances, if an apology is due; I apologize.

While you continue to string quotes together to make your case that they somehow promised "completion" of the dams, you know and I know and everyone except Wrinkle knows, that the dam funds required a federal match.  You've known that all along.  That's the bottom line.  

Maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but I do not believe that you were ever under the delusion that this was anything more than matching funds.  And it is hard for me to believe that you would be so gullible as to believe something you know is not true.

That being said, I'll give you props for footwork.  Most politicians, worthless.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

How is that trash to energy plant working.....

You can trace that pile of crap right back to Jim Inhofe as well, when he was mayor.

[peladac]

I live in Sand Springs and I do most of my shopping in Tulsa County.   I'm sick of our taxes being hiked!!!  I hope people come to their senses and vote NO on this.  Look at the sales tax increase for our roads.  What is that getting me?  I HUGE crack in my windshield and another nick, oh and dodging men throwing black asphalt in front of my car.  GRRRRR  I do not like what my tax dollars are going to so I do NOT trust these morons to do what is right.  Tax, tax, tax, tax, hell, I've had enough taxes.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

How is that trash to energy plant working.....

Maybe they could apply the amount they've still been collecting from US since the TTE plant was paid off last September toward the dams.

[Conan71]

quote:

quote:
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If you vote YES...
The county sales tax will be raised 1% which will fund an incentive to bring Boeing aircraft to town, capital improvements for American Airlines, buildings for OU-Tulsa, OSU-Tulsa, TCC, NSU-Broken Arrow, and Langston-Tulsa, instructional materials for all Tulsa County Public Schools, a Regional Convention/Events Center, improvements to Tulsa Area Parks, Broken Arrow Community Center, Collinsville City Hall, Owasso Community Center, Skiatook Community Center and Pool, Sperry Community Center, Mohawk Park, Tulsa Air and Space Museum, Osage Trail, Midland Valley/Downtown Trail Extension, Arkansas Low Water Dams, Zink Lake Beautification, Historic Route 66, Oklahoma Aquarium, Jazz Hall of Fame, Tulsa County Downtowns/Neighborhoods improvements, Haikey Creek flood prevention, 61st Street and 36th Street North widenings, water lines for Owasso Medical Complex, Sand Springs/Keystone Area redevelopment, American Indian Cultural Center, continued improvements to Expo Center, new building for Morton Health Care, and a Senior Rebate available to all Tulsa County seniors age 65 and older.
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Again, voters were not being sold studies or plans, but dams.

The Arkansas River Corridor Plan was mentioned in the ballot resolution, not as a project to be funded by Vision 2025, but as a process to determine where the Vision 2025-funded dams would be built:

Read the list.  Anyone else notice how they tried to please every single demographic in Tulsa County with these projects?  Pretty brilliant to package all of them together, otherwise, we likely would have never gotten a single one of them by itself.  

Bob Dick should have just been honest and said:  "We really don't have the foggiest idea how much these dams will cost, but we threw them in because it will appeal to the younger demographic".

The county effed up by counting on the Federal Gov't.  They should have shot high on the number and put full funding for the LWD's into the V-2025 ballot and they wouldn't have this problem now.  

Michael Bates certainly knew about it, but I think Michael C is trying to badger him into another of his word-parsing games which is nothing new.  Count me in as one of the people who was un-aware of the federal matching funds which were required for the dams.  I just wasn't as interested in local government at the time to the depths I am now.  I honestly don't give a rat's rear end if Bates knew about it or not.  The average voter certainly did not if all they went on was the ballot or proposition abstract.

I'm sure there are a lot more people out there who are far more obtuse than I am.  If someone didn't bother to read up on the projects prior to getting into the ballot booth, they had no idea the LWD projects were contingent on federal funds.  As far as they knew, voting for prop. 4 would build low water dams.  My guess is less than 10% of voters are as astute on the issues as the people on here are.  

I'd be willing to bet that even fewer than 10% of the people bothered to research very far into the issue.  There were so many press stories around that time, it's easy to lose interest after you've made up your mind which way you will vote.  Even if someone was so inclined to read every word of each proposition, they still wouldn't have had a clue that the dams were contingent on matching funds.

There are a lot of people who are content to trust what is printed on the face of the ballot is what they are getting.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Michael Bates certainly knew about it, but I think Michael C is trying to badger him into another of his word-parsing games which is nothing new.

That may not be new, but that's not what I'm doing here.  I've read some of Bates stuff, some of his arguments are pretty good.  And if you didn't know it was matching funds, no one is faulting you on that.    

There's a simple tactic that Bates uses, that I try not to let pass unchallenged.  He knows it's matching funds, he tells you it isn't, then he relies on your memory or your distrust of current or past politicians, to prove his version right.  It would be hilarious if he didn't do that all the damn time.

Instead of lying to each other, and worrying about who knew what when and who doesn't like who (Bates preferred line of thought), Tulsa would probably be better served diving into the River Tax, checking out the details, and seeing if it's worth passing.  There may be good reasons to pass it or let it sink, I haven't jumped too much into the details yet.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

Originally posted by Conan71


Instead of lying to each other, and worrying about who knew what when and who doesn't like who (Bates preferred line of thought), Tulsa would probably be better served diving into the River Tax, checking out the details, and seeing if it's worth passing.  There may be good reasons to pass it or let it sink, I haven't jumped too much into the details yet.

I'm not going to speak for what Bates' intentions are, as only he knows.  I do think it's relevant for voters to have it brought to our attention that the details on the 2003 promises were somewhere between hazy and just plain sloppy work.  I think it's relevant in considering whether or not I want to trust these politicians and beaurocrats with any more of my tax money.  

Drafters of the wording on our ballots need to quit thinking that the average voter can glean all the details through osmosis.  Most of the voters are only used to drawing a line next to the name of a candidate.  On issue votes, I think it needs to be clearly spelled out, especially if the project is contingent on something else having to happen for it to succeed.

In my business, if I tell a customer I can complete a project for a certain amount, I have to deliver on my quote, regardless of loss or profit, unless I've clearly stated there are contingencies which can make the project cost go up.  If I fail to deliver for the agreed price, I get sued.  Same thing goes with any of my vendors or sub-contractors.  That might be why I demand a lot more clarity when someone tells me they can complete something or deliver something at a given price.

I understand I'm making somewhat of an apples/oranges comparison, but just trying to give you an idea why I have this "hold their feet to the fire" issue.

I'm refusing to look at it simply as "...it's only going to cost each taxpayer xxx dollars a year so why not do it..." I'm a lot more skeptical in trusting the county commission than I used to be.  Randi Miller seems like she's about to wet her pants on this.  They've brought Simonson into the fold, IMO, simply to lend some credibility to it and to neutralize an outspoken and consistent foe to previous tax increases.  The timing was impeccable for that hire.  Maybe it's all coincidence and I'm just too damn cynical.

V-2025 has gotten enough publicity now about the matching funds, but I don't recall a whole lot of talk about it until after Bates started stirring the proverbial **** bucket.

[MichaelC]

If I recall, there wasn't a whole lot of talk about the dams.  Now, there were an awful lot of projects.  Maybe it could have been handled better.  I knew, that doesn't mean everyone else did.

For me, Vision 2025 is working within acceptable parameters.  We're about where I expected.  I don't focus too much on the characters around it, Miller might be crazier than loon, I couldn't tell ya.

I'm not saying anything was done perfectly.  I don't usually expect perfect, so, for what it's worth.  But, I can tell you this, I'm gonna have difficulty letting Bates slide on the train of thought.  Hopefully, he'll get off of it and on to something else.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

He knows it's matching funds, he tells you it isn't....

Where did I do this, MichaelC?

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

He knows it's matching funds, he tells you it isn't....

Where did I do this, MichaelC?

Any chance of moving on gents?

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

Any chance of moving on gents?

Absolutely.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

Any chance of moving on gents?

Absolutely.

Not as long as MichaelC makes accusations about me and refuses to back them up.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

Not as long as MichaelC makes accusations about me and refuses to back them up.

I understand, baby sitting you is my job.  Here it is again.

quote:Maybe it's not a lie, maybe Wrinkle was crediting you with something you didn't say. Maybe your brain is as bad as mine. Don't know the circumstances, if an apology is due; I apologize.

While you continue to string quotes together to make your case that they somehow promised "completion" of the dams, you know and I know and everyone except Wrinkle knows, that the dam funds required a federal match. You've known that all along. That's the bottom line.

Maybe I'm giving you too much credit, but I do not believe that you were ever under the delusion that this was anything more than matching funds. And it is hard for me to believe that you would be so gullible as to believe something you know is not true.

That being said, I'll give you props for footwork. Most politicians, worthless.

Now if you are completely delusional, or if you have no idea how the Fed works, you can continue saying that somehow "completion" of the dams within the confines of Vision 2025 was a "promise."  Even if you can piece together something that says that, it's not true, it's not what was passed, and you know it.