River vote...county sets rules

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

From what I can tell so far, Bates may be right, there may be enough money to just draw it out of Vision2025.  But if I were the City of Tulsa, I would have to consider fighting that.  These projects were always partially funded, I would have a problem using more of Tulsa's funds to accelerate the growth of Jenks and Sand Springs.  I'm sure they want the dams, they may deserve them, I don't have a problem with those two towns.  But the dams were not fully funded by this package.  I would have a problem altering the package to fully fund those dams, if I were the city of Tulsa.  If I were Jenks, i'd love it.  

We voted on a package, the balance is going to be thrown a little bit if your going to start giving special attention to the dams projects.  They've got this new package, with new projects, and it will have to have some version of balance in order to pass.

You've got me a little confused as to why Tulsa would be upset about finishing the dams from V2025 overages.  That is a county tax and therefore county funds.  COT isn't out a penny unless they want to do some of their own development along the banks.

Something just smacked me in the face on this that I had previously ignored:

The COT engineering facility just south of 23rd street is one of the properties which would be purchased under the River Plan if I am not mistaken.

The workers in this facility are supposed to be consolidated into the new City Hall at OneTech.

That would take care of part of the City's pitch to selling off existing real estate.  Shame of it is, the city recently spent a fair amount of money upgrading the heating and air in this building.

Might be another reason for the rush to vote as well- some well-timed pressure from the Mayor's office.  Only part is, this parcel of land is already served by the Zink Lake dam.  

In other words, we don't need what is in the River Tax proposal to flip this property and make it attractive for private development, nor for a public gathering space if that was what were to go there.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

Waterboy, I pulled out what I see as questions that I can address.

Thank you for responding. I just generated a reply and accidentally erased the whole thing. Testament to my forum skills. Let me apologize if any of my responses were...ungentlemanly. Hard to communicate without eye contact and physical feedback. And apologies can be slow in coming.

It is a responsible thing you do to post here and I can imagine your dismay at all the misinformation floating around whether purposefully or not. Let me hit some highpoints of the conversation.

1."you guys" was referring to the smart guys who regularly post here and don't grasp the fact that less than 20% of our residents have a college degree or have ever followed politics, development or planning. I figure some of them are current or former insiders, bureaucrats, planners, architects and lawyers by trade. They assume a lot and sometimes are impatient with the taste and behaviors of the middle class.

1a. Though v2025 attempted to gather public input from all walks of life in Tulsa county they were by no means a representative sample of the electorate. People have to work, take kids to athletics, fix meals, fix cars, buy groceries etc. and many also did not grasp the importance of the process believing it to be another marketing effort for yet another tax. Yes that's their fault they were not self-employed, college educated, young coulples, empty nesters ,retired or wealthy but it skewed the results. Remember the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline? It was slugged on the basis of a broad well written survey conducted by telephone. Only problem was only the wealthy republicans at the time had phones. That's why we need the online, real time survey and I'm glad you recognize that even if the pols don't.

1b. I saw the marinas on the Master Plan. I didn't see them on the Kaiser plan. Even if they are there, its just pictures isn't it? I doubt private boats will be allowed except human powered. As for commercial boats, I don't see them as economically feasible if the boats moored there are only usable on a two-four mile stretch of lake unless there are lots of tourists all day long. I speak from experience on this point. The riverbanks are dead until festivals, holidays, concerts etc. Which means it is an appointment business happening mostly during off hours. Not enough off hours to pay the freight. Concession fees, insurance, maintenance and fuel will kill off a private enterprize under the Authority. The OKC Brick canal boats needed more public money than they thought. So will this one.

That is unless you could make longer trips through each impoundment. It sounds like locks were considered. Should we ever have opportunity to meet I have some thoughts on how that could work. The jet boats are intriguing. They even use them in New Zealand on narrow steep rivers. They suck up sand and debris on this type of river creating maintenance problems but I think it could work. To achieve the entertainment value necessary they would be pretty fuelish and noisy too.

2.I'm glad you see the value of internet surveying. The other advantage of a real time, online survey is in creating a salable plan in the first place and fine tuning it. Current public input is what, 5years old? You would have found out real fast that pedestrian bridges are a non starter for a representative sample of average Tulsans. I ask everyone I know and they grimace at the thought of a 15million dollar walkway over the river. Perhaps a preface question of "have you ever been on the pedestrian bridge at Zink lake?" Then ask if they want another one. I know however that the politics are in play.

The only other highlight I want to take space on now is the one that I saw up close. Policing, safety, maintenance and debris cleanup. I have had some harrowing adventures on this river and won't go into all of them (thankfully). But the underlying problems are significant. Problems of jurisdiction, overlapping authority similar to 911 foul ups, disputes over ownership and hidden traps for maintenance as well as new pollution sources. I'm glad Jenks may get their old bridge debris removed but that should be done on the living river and specifically under the existing Tulsa/Sand Springs bridges too.

I will pm you as I would enjoy talking with you again. All is not lost for this project but the public does need a fair amount of persuading.

[pmcalk]

I haven't decided yet how to vote, but I have one question that really bugs me.  As far as I have seen, no one has asked or answered it.  There is 52.4 million slated for land acquisition.  Presumably this land is aquired for RFPs for development.  First, who gets to choose among the RFPs?  Is it the new board, or the city in which the property is located?  Second, and more importantly, after the land is sold off through the RFP, who gets the money?  Is it simply put back into the river development?  I assume that ultimately the land acquistion costs should be a wash, assuming that people want to develop this land.  But I haven't seen any explanation of how that money will be used.

[YoungTulsan]

I forget, does this plan buy out and destroy the Westport apartments?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

I forget, does this plan buy out and destroy the Westport apartments?

I think that depends on whose plan for that area is accepted and how much land they desire. The Branson plan or whoever. Seems strange they would eliminate a ready source of patrons already committed to a river community lifestyle. Would rather see the concrete plant disappear.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

Waterboy, I pulled out what I see as questions that I can address.

Thank you for responding. I just generated a reply and accidentally erased the whole thing. Testament to my forum skills. Let me apologize if any of my responses were...ungentlemanly. Hard to communicate without eye contact and physical feedback. And apologies can be slow in coming.

It is a responsible thing you do to post here and I can imagine your dismay at all the misinformation floating around whether purposefully or not. Let me hit some highpoints of the conversation.

1."you guys" was referring to the smart guys who regularly post here and don't grasp the fact that less than 20% of our residents have a college degree or have ever followed politics, development or planning. I figure some of them are current or former insiders, bureaucrats, planners, architects and lawyers by trade. They assume a lot and sometimes are impatient with the taste and behaviors of the middle class.

1a. Though v2025 attempted to gather public input from all walks of life in Tulsa county they were by no means a representative sample of the electorate. People have to work, take kids to athletics, fix meals, fix cars, buy groceries etc. and many also did not grasp the importance of the process believing it to be another marketing effort for yet another tax. Yes that's their fault they were not self-employed, college educated, young coulples, empty nesters ,retired or wealthy but it skewed the results. Remember the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline? It was slugged on the basis of a broad well written survey conducted by telephone. Only problem was only the wealthy republicans at the time had phones. That's why we need the online, real time survey and I'm glad you recognize that even if the pols don't.

1b. I saw the marinas on the Master Plan. I didn't see them on the Kaiser plan. Even if they are there, its just pictures isn't it? I doubt private boats will be allowed except human powered. As for commercial boats, I don't see them as economically feasible if the boats moored there are only usable on a two-four mile stretch of lake unless there are lots of tourists all day long. I speak from experience on this point. The riverbanks are dead until festivals, holidays, concerts etc. Which means it is an appointment business happening mostly during off hours. Not enough off hours to pay the freight. Concession fees, insurance, maintenance and fuel will kill off a private enterprize under the Authority. The OKC Brick canal boats needed more public money than they thought. So will this one.

That is unless you could make longer trips through each impoundment. It sounds like locks were considered. Should we ever have opportunity to meet I have some thoughts on how that could work. The jet boats are intriguing. They even use them in New Zealand on narrow steep rivers. They suck up sand and debris on this type of river creating maintenance problems but I think it could work. To achieve the entertainment value necessary they would be pretty fuelish and noisy too.

2.I'm glad you see the value of internet surveying. The other advantage of a real time, online survey is in creating a salable plan in the first place and fine tuning it. Current public input is what, 5years old? You would have found out real fast that pedestrian bridges are a non starter for a representative sample of average Tulsans. I ask everyone I know and they grimace at the thought of a 15million dollar walkway over the river. Perhaps a preface question of "have you ever been on the pedestrian bridge at Zink lake?" Then ask if they want another one. I know however that the politics are in play.

The only other highlight I want to take space on now is the one that I saw up close. Policing, safety, maintenance and debris cleanup. I have had some harrowing adventures on this river and won't go into all of them (thankfully). But the underlying problems are significant. Problems of jurisdiction, overlapping authority similar to 911 foul ups, disputes over ownership and hidden traps for maintenance as well as new pollution sources. I'm glad Jenks may get their old bridge debris removed but that should be done on the living river and specifically under the existing Tulsa/Sand Springs bridges too.

I will pm you as I would enjoy talking with you again. All is not lost for this project but the public does need a fair amount of persuading.

Congrats....! H20..   You have gone from an unemployed, broken computer, former river taxi pilot, posting to Tulsa Now from a remote location....To breaking bread with the Consiglieri for the current Capos..

Remarkable... and I mean no disrespect....

I took note of a mention of a water taxi service possibly being needed in the area should this project pass.......

Bona Suerte......!

Could you please find out at your meeting.....

Will one be able to surf in the proposed kayak rapids......?

Will one be able to swim the channels of the "new river"....?

Anyway.... Happy Sushimi.....! Either to you or Mister Crowe...[}:)]

[waterboy]

Well, underemployed with a computer that has nasty viruses. But at least its not the library! Making progress.

I haven't made arrangements so I don't know if he was serious, but...why don't you come along? That is unless ...you're worried that your true identity as Shadows would be compromised.[]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

Waterboy, I pulled out what I see as questions that I can address.

Thank you for responding. I just generated a reply and accidentally erased the whole thing. Testament to my forum skills. Let me apologize if any of my responses were...ungentlemanly. Hard to communicate without eye contact and physical feedback. And apologies can be slow in coming.

It is a responsible thing you do to post here and I can imagine your dismay at all the misinformation floating around whether purposefully or not. Let me hit some highpoints of the conversation.

1."you guys" was referring to the smart guys who regularly post here and don't grasp the fact that less than 20% of our residents have a college degree or have ever followed politics, development or planning. I figure some of them are current or former insiders, bureaucrats, planners, architects and lawyers by trade. They assume a lot and sometimes are impatient with the taste and behaviors of the middle class.

1a. Though v2025 attempted to gather public input from all walks of life in Tulsa county they were by no means a representative sample of the electorate. People have to work, take kids to athletics, fix meals, fix cars, buy groceries etc. and many also did not grasp the importance of the process believing it to be another marketing effort for yet another tax. Yes that's their fault they were not self-employed, college educated, young coulples, empty nesters ,retired or wealthy but it skewed the results. Remember the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline? It was slugged on the basis of a broad well written survey conducted by telephone. Only problem was only the wealthy republicans at the time had phones. That's why we need the online, real time survey and I'm glad you recognize that even if the pols don't.

1b. I saw the marinas on the Master Plan. I didn't see them on the Kaiser plan. Even if they are there, its just pictures isn't it? I doubt private boats will be allowed except human powered. As for commercial boats, I don't see them as economically feasible if the boats moored there are only usable on a two-four mile stretch of lake unless there are lots of tourists all day long. I speak from experience on this point. The riverbanks are dead until festivals, holidays, concerts etc. Which means it is an appointment business happening mostly during off hours. Not enough off hours to pay the freight. Concession fees, insurance, maintenance and fuel will kill off a private enterprize under the Authority. The OKC Brick canal boats needed more public money than they thought. So will this one.

That is unless you could make longer trips through each impoundment. It sounds like locks were considered. Should we ever have opportunity to meet I have some thoughts on how that could work. The jet boats are intriguing. They even use them in New Zealand on narrow steep rivers. They suck up sand and debris on this type of river creating maintenance problems but I think it could work. To achieve the entertainment value necessary they would be pretty fuelish and noisy too.

2.I'm glad you see the value of internet surveying. The other advantage of a real time, online survey is in creating a salable plan in the first place and fine tuning it. Current public input is what, 5years old? You would have found out real fast that pedestrian bridges are a non starter for a representative sample of average Tulsans. I ask everyone I know and they grimace at the thought of a 15million dollar walkway over the river. Perhaps a preface question of "have you ever been on the pedestrian bridge at Zink lake?" Then ask if they want another one. I know however that the politics are in play.

The only other highlight I want to take space on now is the one that I saw up close. Policing, safety, maintenance and debris cleanup. I have had some harrowing adventures on this river and won't go into all of them (thankfully). But the underlying problems are significant. Problems of jurisdiction, overlapping authority similar to 911 foul ups, disputes over ownership and hidden traps for maintenance as well as new pollution sources. I'm glad Jenks may get their old bridge debris removed but that should be done on the living river and specifically under the existing Tulsa/Sand Springs bridges too.

I will pm you as I would enjoy talking with you again. All is not lost for this project but the public does need a fair amount of persuading.

Congrats....! H20..   You have gone from an unemployed, broken computer, former river taxi pilot, posting to Tulsa Now from a remote location....To breaking bread with the Consiglieri for the current Capos..

Remarkable... and I mean no disrespect....

I took note of a mention of a water taxi service possibly being needed in the area should this project pass.......

Bona Suerte......!

Could you please find out at your meeting.....

Will one be able to surf in the proposed kayak rapids......?

Will one be able to swim the channels of the "new river"....?

Anyway.... Happy Sushimi.....! Either to you or Mister Crowe...[}:)]

No swimming sign is posted.  The Arkansas River in Tulsa is considered safe only for what is called "SECONDARY CONTACT".

Meaning, if some of it splashed on you while you were riding in a boat, there's no direct danger.

Swimming in the Arkansas River runs a risk of ingestion.  And then you're talking next about a LONG cure for constipation.........

Kayaking involves a risk of capsizing.  And, that means being underwater.  Which means there is a reasonable chance of ingestion of the polluted water.

The river is absolutely NOT safe for a source of drinking water, without extensive chemical treatment.

The Kaiser River Tax represents just another wrong-headed prioritization of a WANT vs. a NEED.

The main NEED of the hidden promoters behind this tax (construction companies, architects, engineers, bond underwriters, bond attorneys, etc.) is the NEED to FEED their GREED.

That's all it is really about.

[:O]

[waterboy]

Show me a No Swimming sign along the Arkansas River in Tulsa. The "not safe except for secondary contact" signs are there because the water is not regularly tested and the authorities will not take responsibility for ingestion. It also keeps people from having to be rescued. That does not mean it is not safe.
Its safety changes all the time just like Grand Lake.

The rowing crew would be a good test case for your theory of unsafe at any distance attitude. Kayakers likely won't be doing turnovers on this stretch except the wild ones, but once again check with those who do the "wave" and see if they experience intestinal problems. Probably more at risk for bugs from Big Splash than the from the river.

Everyone is an expert on the quality of the river, yet very little testing is ever done or released to the public.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Show me a No Swimming sign along the Arkansas River in Tulsa. The "not safe except for secondary contact" signs are there because the water is not regularly tested and the authorities will not take responsibility for ingestion. It also keeps people from having to be rescued. That does not mean it is not safe.
Its safety changes all the time just like Grand Lake.

The rowing crew would be a good test case for your theory of unsafe at any distance attitude. Kayakers likely won't be doing turnovers on this stretch except the wild ones, but once again check with those who do the "wave" and see if they experience intestinal problems. Probably more at risk for bugs from Big Splash than the from the river.

Everyone is an expert on the quality of the river, yet very little testing is ever done or released to the public.

Then by all means go have a nice, tall glass of Arkansas River water.

You'd then be married to a commode for a long time.

[TheArtist]

Dont know of many local ponds, lakes or rivers where that wouldnt be as likely a case.

[swake]

Quote, from the Branson Landing developer about a "Tulsa Landing" project:

Huffman said his decision to build in Tulsa is not completely predicated on voter approval of the sales-tax initiative, but insisted that some funding mechanism to prepare the land for development is essential. "I don't see how it will be possible (without it) because the city's going to need to fund the land acquisition," he said.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070824_1_A3_hHisc56181

[Vision 2025]

Swimming has been discouraged in recent years for safety reasons, not water quality reasons.  The safety reasons include the potential for rapidly rising water levels from hydro releases (which I believe is the root cause of the majority of rescues needed, which the improvements plan will greatly help) and dangerous hydraulic conditions which exist at Zink Dam which have been at times tragic but these will be fixed.

Secondary Bodily Contact is a stream standard definition (a regulatory standard), the discharge permits in the area however are required to be even better as they must meet the standard for "Primary Bodily Contact" this is because the regulators know people do get in the river but again swimming is discouraged.

And yes surfing in the white water areas was identified as a possiblity by the whitewater consultant.  

[Conan71]

With maybe minor leaching issues or a rare out-of-permit discharge by Sun or Sinclair, the Arkansas river water is of the same health quality as what is impounded in Keystone Lake.

It's about the same as the reservoirs where our drinking water supply comes from:  Oologah and Spavinaw.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

With maybe minor leaching issues or a rare out-of-permit discharge by Sun or Sinclair, the Arkansas river water is of the same health quality as what is impounded in Keystone Lake.

It's about the same as the reservoirs where our drinking water supply comes from:  Oologah and Spavinaw.

Because of run-off from storm water drains, creeks, ditches and tributaries, the Arkansas River carries animal feces, hydrocarbon pollutants from our streets, etc..  Our River gets the worst.  Every time it rains.