Tulsa topics in the SkyscraperPage forum.

[TheArtist]

With what has been talked about here concerning river development and downtown Wal-Mart. I thought it would be interesting to see what people who live in other cities (real cities even) would have to say.

I started this Thread.

HELP! MY CITY HAS FALLEN AND CANT GET BACK UP!

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=136276

And have made some comments and got responses in this thread


CHAIN STORES KILLING OFF DOWNTOWNS UNIQUE RETAIL VIBE

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=136324

This thread is also relevant.

BIG BOX MAKEOVER

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=136248

[tulsa1603]

My brother frequents that forum because he lives in Houston and is somewhat obsessed with skyscrapers.  He sent me a link that that thread yesterday.  I had to tell him that I knew you.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

My brother frequents that forum because he lives in Houston and is somewhat obsessed with skyscrapers.  He sent me a link that that thread yesterday.  I had to tell him that I knew you.

I profusely apologize for any distress and embarrassment that disclosure may have caused you. [8D]

[TheTed]

The post at the end mentions bartlett square. So I searched and found these really cool pictures of what the area used to look like (before I lived here) http://flickr.com/photos/losttulsa/sets/668387/show/

Why was this removed? Downtown streets are seemingly filled to about 1% of their capacity during the middle of a weekday afternoon. There's no reason anybody absolutely needed to drive on Main Street.

I never realized what downtown had. Just looking at those old photos of Bartlett Square makes me irate.

[cannon_fodder]

ON the "big box" killing unique downtown stores... Tulsa doesnt really have a downtown shopping atmosphere to kill.  It has had many, many years to develop and has failed to do so.    So that argument does really apply.

And it seems like that forum is in favor of voting for River above infrastructure.

[TheArtist]

In my opinion the old Bartlett Square is what the civic center plaza should have looked like. There used to be lots of businesses along main. But when they put the plaza in, nobody drove past them and shopped there anymore.  However its hard to tell whether it was because of Bartlett Square or because Bartlett Square just happened to be built at the same time downtown was "finishing itself off", and losing businesses and people to the suburbs. The trees and fountains looked nice. It looks nice with the people in it during the festivals. However  the businesses along it and the cross streets it intersected, died because other than lunch time or during the rare festival, nobody saw those businesses.  The thought is that if you opened the streets back up to traffic it will give businesses a chance to be seen.  

Again, it would have been wiser imo to build all of that in an area where there were already no streets and businesses to be blocked. Aka, the Civic Center Plaza or heck even better, one of the many surface parking lots. It could have helped to revitalize an area around it versus stunting a once busy street.  There was never any need to block any streets.

The thing was it was the fad at the time to do this type of thing. And it may have actually worked in some cities whose downtowns were growing or were doing other things to make their downtowns grow and become more walkable and liveable. But you cant always just look at one piece of what another different city is doing and think that will replicate well in our downtown.

I think we are partly doing that with this Wal-mart controversy. People are saying we want to create an urban environment. Thats great, but unless your in a desirable area where some large developer is going to try and do it whole cloth, your going to have to let it evolve naturally. There is no urban environment downtown. It LOOKS like it at first glance. But those tall buildings are an illusion. There isnt anyone in them. They might as well be big rocks. If you were to take out all the virtually empty buildings in the area or make them the size appropriate to the number of people actually in them. You wouldnt have a whole lot down there. Not to mention large swaths of area around parts of north and east downtown. It would probably be less dense and urban than 61st and Yale or 71st and memorial.  

Urban districts start out as successful suburban type areas then grow and evolve into urban areas. Our sea of surface parking and abandoned buildings, especially near the east end is basically starting at square one and can grow from suburban to urban.

Whatever happens there is not permanent. It can evolve, but it can only do that if it actually starts growing. It can only do that by starting at the beginning or by having some huge development doing a "faux urban" environment all at once. That area has been sitting there for a long time, there are plenty of other areas as well that can grow differently if you insist. Gunboat, Brady, Blue Dome and Main Street for example.

Look at many of the responses on the Skyscraper Page forum to the Big Box and Large Chain, questions. Some point out that such stores only show that an area is growing, that unique, local stores do not compete with them, that cities evolve, areas change and flux. In an area that virtually has nothing but blight, a decent looking wal-mart with a 4 story apartment building and its structured parking, is a start, not the end product. That part of downtown is dead and nobody is going to invest in a more expensive 2 story, parking underneath or large parking garage store.  If it were an already bustling area with high property values they may be able to recoup their returns. (look at the photos of the areas around those 2 story big box stores people post on here, they are in already successful areas that look nothing like our east end ) As it is the most likely model to work for the moment is the suburban one, because in reality it is a suburban area.

[sauerkraut]

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

What downtown do you go to that is "choked with traffic"?  Obviously not downtown Tulsa...try 71st street in the "easy to shop" suburban part of Tulsa.  And what suburban mall has easy parking?  Seems like I always have to park the equivalent of a few blocks away, anyway.  I'd shop downtown (if we had it) all weekend before I'd attempt to go to a suburban mall.

[TheTed]

Regarding Bartlett Square, I fail to see how opening up Main to traffic helped those businesses. Nobody's parking in front of Oklahoma Spud and getting food.

There's no parking allowed on Main between fourth and fifth anyway, so blocking it off just forces people to drive on surrounding streets.

The first time I visited Tulsa I stayed at a downtown hotel. It was a weekday afternoon. I stared out the window at the downtown streets wondering why there were a bunch of three and four lane one-way streets with just a trickle of traffic on them, even at 5 p.m. on a weekday.

I just don't see how people's ability to drive past Oklahoma Spud is gonna mean more business for the restaurants. Everybody that eats there now walks from a downtown business (maybe some walk from a parking garage) but nobody's parking in front of the store.

[waterboy]

I checked your posts on Skyscraper. You characterized the opposition to the river plan as choosing roads/infrastructure over river/development. That doesn't seem to be accurate. Then you quoted one of the less well developed posts claiming that crime, roads and graft would need to be fixed first as though it was representative of the thoughtful, insightful discussions that occurred.

Why? Of course their responses would favor development, any development, over potholes as most people on this forum would agree. I especially agree with the two guys who strongly suggested we not forget the smaller, incremental projects that tend to be eclipsed with all the "big" talk. Or the discussion of opening up paved over creek beds. Interesting.

Its not roads vs. river, Artist. It is the method of funding, the poor development choices(pedestrian bridges) the vagaries of the wording and the inkling that there is something stinky with the plan that is killing it.

BTW, the mayor who pushed the successful riverfront development in Providence was eventually charged with corruption and run out of office. Huge amounts of public money in small numbers of people tends to do that.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

....."What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.."


Its not necessarily that we want people to drive from the suburbs and go downtown to shop. We want downtown to be an area where people who live there can shop. We want more people and businesses there. Plus we want downtown to be attractive to urban dwellers.

Problem is even the businesses and office workers dont have to be downtown any more than stores do in a suburban, car dominated environment. When Tulsas downtown was alive and bustling it had stores, restaurants, schools, living, businesses, everything. As it more and more became mostly office and parking, it died.

Now we are trying to make it a full fledged urban environment. A walkable environment that will attract urban dwellers. More buildings are being slowly renovated into living spaces. Those people will want to be able to shop and get groceries.

....."Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets."

Downtown has plenty of parking. Its no hassle compared to other urban cities. I have never seen it "choked with traffic". Many of the one way streets are being turned into 2 way streets. I would actually looooove to see downtown choked with traffic at a practical standstill 24-7... and people on the sidewalks too.

.... "I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]"

It is just you,lol. And really a lot of other people too. Urban living isn't for everyone. But neither is suburban living. You have plenty of suburban options to choose from. I would like to live in a more urban environment. And so would a lot of other people. If you dont like it. Then stay away. I dont want to sound mean, just stating a fact. I don't go out into suburbia and fight all the horrible traffic etc. Its not my thing would rather die than live in some massive, faceless tract, development out in the middle of no where. Plus I would like to have more urban and like minded people to hang with, be friends with, just like you want to live and be with people like yourself. We are just as worthy of having a place for ourselves here as you are. You can push for more suburban development and malls. I will push for more urban development and stores downtown.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I checked your posts on Skyscraper. You characterized the opposition to the river plan as choosing roads/infrastructure over river/development. That doesn't seem to be accurate. Then you quoted one of the less well developed posts claiming that crime, roads and graft would need to be fixed first as though it was representative of the thoughtful, insightful discussions that occurred.

Why? Of course their responses would favor development, any development, over potholes as most people on this forum would agree. I especially agree with the two guys who strongly suggested we not forget the smaller, incremental projects that tend to be eclipsed with all the "big" talk. Or the discussion of opening up paved over creek beds. Interesting.

Its not roads vs. river, Artist. It is the method of funding, the poor development choices(pedestrian bridges) the vagaries of the wording and the inkling that there is something stinky with the plan that is killing it.

BTW, the mayor who pushed the successful riverfront development in Providence was eventually charged with corruption and run out of office. Huge amounts of public money in small numbers of people tends to do that.

The roads versus river development is actually the way many people in Tulsa characterize it. (look at the general publics responses to TW online articles)  You have a much more nuanced and knowledgable approach to the issue.  The other main reason I used the quirky thread title and didnt go into a lot of initial detail was to get peoples attention. I dont think a single person would have responded if I had gone into a long speech about the specifics and tax structure etc. Just wanted a quick, basic, easy blurb to get the conversation going. I almost felt as though I said too much and made it too long. From previous posts on that forum I get the feeling that most of them on there dont even consider Tulsa worth talking about or even a real city. And yes, I knew if people on here read what I wrote they would criticize my characterization so almost didnt post it on here, but I still think we can glean lessons from other cities, and our and their similar, "general", situations.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I checked your posts on Skyscraper. You characterized the opposition to the river plan as choosing roads/infrastructure over river/development. That doesn't seem to be accurate. Then you quoted one of the less well developed posts claiming that crime, roads and graft would need to be fixed first as though it was representative of the thoughtful, insightful discussions that occurred.

Why? Of course their responses would favor development, any development, over potholes as most people on this forum would agree. I especially agree with the two guys who strongly suggested we not forget the smaller, incremental projects that tend to be eclipsed with all the "big" talk. Or the discussion of opening up paved over creek beds. Interesting.

Its not roads vs. river, Artist. It is the method of funding, the poor development choices(pedestrian bridges) the vagaries of the wording and the inkling that there is something stinky with the plan that is killing it.

BTW, the mayor who pushed the successful riverfront development in Providence was eventually charged with corruption and run out of office. Huge amounts of public money in small numbers of people tends to do that.

The roads versus river development is actually the way many people in Tulsa characterize it. (look at the general publics responses to TW online articles)  You have a much more nuanced and knowledgable approach to the issue.  The other main reason I used the quirky thread title and didnt go into a lot of initial detail was to get peoples attention. I dont think a single person would have responded if I had gone into a long speech about the specifics and tax structure etc. Just wanted a quick, basic, easy blurb to get the conversation going. I almost felt as though I said too much and made it too long. From previous posts on that forum I get the feeling that most of them on there dont even consider Tulsa worth talking about or even a real city. And yes, I knew if people on here read what I wrote they would criticize my characterization so almost didnt post it on here, but I still think we can glean lessons from other cities, and our and their similar, "general", situations.

My opposition to this plan has nothing to do with roads or mowing grass.  I think our roads are fine compared to any other city (highways are another story).  I just don't think the wording of the ballot is enough of a guarantee of performance, and I think the plan doesn't have enough teeth.  I have a feeling that if it does pass, we'll be lucky to get 50% of what is proposed.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

....."What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.."


Its not necessarily that we want people to drive from the suburbs and go downtown to shop. We want downtown to be an area where people who live there can shop. We want more people and businesses there. Plus we want downtown to be attractive to urban dwellers.

Problem is even the businesses and office workers dont have to be downtown any more than stores do in a suburban, car dominated environment. When Tulsas downtown was alive and bustling it had stores, restaurants, schools, living, businesses, everything. As it more and more became mostly office and parking, it died.

Now we are trying to make it a full fledged urban environment. A walkable environment that will attract urban dwellers. More buildings are being slowly renovated into living spaces. Those people will want to be able to shop and get groceries.

....."Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets."

Downtown has plenty of parking. Its no hassle compared to other urban cities. I have never seen it "choked with traffic". Many of the one way streets are being turned into 2 way streets. I would actually looooove to see downtown choked with traffic at a practical standstill 24-7... and people on the sidewalks too.

.... "I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]"

It is just you,lol. And really a lot of other people too. Urban living isn't for everyone. But neither is suburban living. You have plenty of suburban options to choose from. I would like to live in a more urban environment. And so would a lot of other people. If you dont like it. Then stay away. I dont want to sound mean, just stating a fact. I don't go out into suburbia and fight all the horrible traffic etc. Its not my thing would rather die than live in some massive, faceless tract, development out in the middle of no where. Plus I would like to have more urban and like minded people to hang with, be friends with, just like you want to live and be with people like yourself. We are just as worthy of having a place for ourselves here as you are. You can push for more suburban development and malls. I will push for more urban development and stores downtown.

Why have people live downtown? I just don't understnd that You don't need more families crowding into a tight area when there'a ample room out side of the downtown areas. There's parking problemos for both the 9-5 office worker and offten the residents. I would favor keeping downtown for business only. So what if nothing goes on downtown during the night there, why is it so important to have shops and entertainment 24/7 downtown when you can have those elsewhere where the parking is plentyful and free? Why crowd in more people by building a downtown hi-rise, the less people the better it is for everyone. No one likes to live in crowded places. As for the comment about what crowds?- Most downtown areas are busy 9-5. Columbus, Ohio is choked with traffic & people as is Indianapolis and even downtown Omaha. Then around 6pm it clears out.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

What downtown do you go to that is "choked with traffic"?  Obviously not downtown Tulsa...try 71st street in the "easy to shop" suburban part of Tulsa.  And what suburban mall has easy parking?  Seems like I always have to park the equivalent of a few blocks away, anyway.  I'd shop downtown (if we had it) all weekend before I'd attempt to go to a suburban mall.

I was caught in heavy traffic in Downtown Tulsa myself the last time I was in Tulsa this spring. Sure the suburban malls have traffic but they also have free parking and lots of it and it's easy on/off to the  freeway in most cases (like from the Target store on 71st to the 169 freeway). I just don't get the reason that we must live downtown and we need to build more hi-rise apartments for people to crowd into the downtown area then we need stores downtown for people to shop at all hours of the day & nite. The Tulsa downtown area is small and the few stores that were around the area had to close up due to hi crime such as the old Safeway store on Denver street. I think it's best just to leave the downtown area for business and office workers. Tulsa is not New York or Chicago and from what I read some posters seem to think Tulsa needs to be like that. Those two cities are huge and very old. Let Tulsa have it's own charm.[]