Tulsa topics in the SkyscraperPage forum.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I checked your posts on Skyscraper. You characterized the opposition to the river plan as choosing roads/infrastructure over river/development. That doesn't seem to be accurate. Then you quoted one of the less well developed posts claiming that crime, roads and graft would need to be fixed first as though it was representative of the thoughtful, insightful discussions that occurred.

Why? Of course their responses would favor development, any development, over potholes as most people on this forum would agree. I especially agree with the two guys who strongly suggested we not forget the smaller, incremental projects that tend to be eclipsed with all the "big" talk. Or the discussion of opening up paved over creek beds. Interesting.

Its not roads vs. river, Artist. It is the method of funding, the poor development choices(pedestrian bridges) the vagaries of the wording and the inkling that there is something stinky with the plan that is killing it.

BTW, the mayor who pushed the successful riverfront development in Providence was eventually charged with corruption and run out of office. Huge amounts of public money in small numbers of people tends to do that.

The roads versus river development is actually the way many people in Tulsa characterize it. (look at the general publics responses to TW online articles)  You have a much more nuanced and knowledgable approach to the issue.  The other main reason I used the quirky thread title and didnt go into a lot of initial detail was to get peoples attention. I dont think a single person would have responded if I had gone into a long speech about the specifics and tax structure etc. Just wanted a quick, basic, easy blurb to get the conversation going. I almost felt as though I said too much and made it too long. From previous posts on that forum I get the feeling that most of them on there dont even consider Tulsa worth talking about or even a real city. And yes, I knew if people on here read what I wrote they would criticize my characterization so almost didnt post it on here, but I still think we can glean lessons from other cities, and our and their similar, "general", situations.

Clear enough. You may be right unfortunately that the it is coming down to roads vs. river. I think we can do both.

[TheArtist]

"Why have people live downtown?" You make it sound as if we are trying to force people to live downtown. We are not. A lot of people I know like living in bustling urban areas. They like the "crowd". Yes there are people who like living alone way out in the woods too. To each his own.

I know a lot of people who like living in an area where they dont have to drive at all. You wont have to worry about parking and traffic then. They, and I, would like to live in an environment that is beautiful, has sidewalk cafes and restaurants, where you can work, shop, go to school, play within walking distance or a short bikeride or public transportation ride away.  There is a sense of community, more free time versus driving all over town to get and do things. Its less of an environmental impact when people live closer together and dont have to drive as much. Plus there are fewer roads to whine about fixing and more people per square mile of road and other infrastructure to pay for them.

Cities dont need to be big and old like NYC to have lively urban districts. Tulsa once had 9000 people per square mile and for decades when it was Americas most beautiful city back in its "golden age" it had over 6000 people per square mile. The churches and schools, high school, shops, barbershop, grocery store, movies, apartments, everything was right there in downtown.  26 percent plus vacancy rates, vacant parking lots and crumbling buildings and streets, etc. is not a ringing endorsment for the "downtown as an office park only" idea.  Mixed use urban environments worked for us in the past. They have worked throughout all history.

Whats wrong with wanting to live like this?...

Downtown Tulsa





or this...










Here are a couple of pages from the website that is being made to help raise money for the "Goddess of Oil" statue my grandmother posed for that sums it up.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

What's the big deal of going downtown to shop anyhoo? It's not really needed, Let Downtown be for business and office workers.. It's far more easy to go to a big mall in suburbia.. Downtown shopping has no parking or you have to pay to park. it's just too much hassle, plus on weekdays it's choked with traffic and traffic lights, and one-way streets. I like to avoid downtown at all costs unless I have business to do there or have some reason I need to go downtown, otherwise I keep far away. But that's just me, thanx.[]

What downtown do you go to that is "choked with traffic"?  Obviously not downtown Tulsa...try 71st street in the "easy to shop" suburban part of Tulsa.  And what suburban mall has easy parking?  Seems like I always have to park the equivalent of a few blocks away, anyway.  I'd shop downtown (if we had it) all weekend before I'd attempt to go to a suburban mall.

I was caught in heavy traffic in Downtown Tulsa myself the last time I was in Tulsa this spring. Sure the suburban malls have traffic but they also have free parking and lots of it and it's easy on/off to the  freeway in most cases (like from the Target store on 71st to the 169 freeway). I just don't get the reason that we must live downtown and we need to build more hi-rise apartments for people to crowd into the downtown area then we need stores downtown for people to shop at all hours of the day & nite. The Tulsa downtown area is small and the few stores that were around the area had to close up due to hi crime such as the old Safeway store on Denver street. I think it's best just to leave the downtown area for business and office workers. Tulsa is not New York or Chicago and from what I read some posters seem to think Tulsa needs to be like that. Those two cities are huge and very old. Let Tulsa have it's own charm.[]

Uhm, what stores closed due to high crime?  Where do you get your information?  They closed becuase the town spread south and east.  I can't even FATHOM what part of downtown you were in that had heavy traffic.

The downtown of a city is generally the only part that is uniquely IDENTIFIABLE or DISTINGUISHABLE from any other city.  That's why it's important that we make ours more than a figurehead skyline, it needs to be a place that people can live.  No one is trying to force anyone to live downtown that doesn't want to.  "Let Tulsa have its' own charm"  Where is the charm in 71st street??

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were joking with us.

[sauerkraut]

I believe that safeway store closed up on Denver/15th due to high crime. I believe latter some other business took it over and they closed up too. I think that building is still standing there vacant. To improve Tulsa's skyline they need to build more skyscrapers. It'll be great if they would put up a few 800-1000' skyscrapers. The BOK tower is only 667' feet tall and is the tallest building in Oklahoma. (667' feet is really not that tall). As for the comments above about living downtown and being able get get around without a car, you can do the same thing living at other parts of the city. If you Live near 81st and RiverSide Drive and you can walk to Wal-Mart and restaurants and your even close to the RiverSide jogging trails. You can also get along with out a car living around 129th street and 71st. You have tons of stores and restaurants why do you need to drive? I can name other areas of Tulsa where you can live without a car and still do shopping/night life and all are without living downtown... Living downtown I just don't understand why. It makes no sense as I see it, or so it seems to me.[]

[cannon_fodder]

Wow.  Just wow.

Do you think business just come in and build sky scrappers for fun, or to make the skyline pretty?  No, they build them because they need office space in Tulsa and they want to be downtown.

Right now, office space is just getting to a respectable level and people are just thinking about wanting to be downtown.  Until both of those things are firmly in demand, don't hold your breath.  

and as for 1000 feet... there are 10 (TEN!) buildings in the USA that are over 1000 feet.  Those are in Chicago, New York, LA and one in Atlanta.  800 feet gets you in the top 40.  The BOk Tower would be the tallest building in our neighbors Kansas, New Mexico, Arkansas, or Missouri  (38 other states in all).

While I would love to see our skyline grow, it will only grow as fast as demand for office space.  I hope that happens, but until it does, be damn proud of the skyline we currently offer.


(side note:  if you want to see something amazing/scary, look under construction and see how many times the worl d"Dubai" appears:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_world)

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I believe that safeway store closed up on Denver/15th due to high crime. I believe latter some other business took it over and they closed up too. I think that building is still standing there vacant. To improve Tulsa's skyline they need to build more skyscrapers. It'll be great if they would put up a few 800-1000' skyscrapers. The BOK tower is only 667' feet tall and is the tallest building in Oklahoma. (667' feet is really not that tall). As for the comments above about living downtown and being able get get around without a car, you can do the same thing living at other parts of the city. If you Live near 81st and RiverSide Drive and you can walk to Wal-Mart and restaurants and your even close to the RiverSide jogging trails. You can also get along with out a car living around 129th street and 71st. You have tons of stores and restaurants why do you need to drive? I can name other areas of Tulsa where you can live without a car and still do shopping/night life and all are without living downtown... Living downtown I just don't understand why. It makes no sense as I see it, or so it seems to me.[]

You can get by somewhat without a car in those few places. And I hope they continue to evolve into more urban environments. But even there its not an easy walk nor is it pleasant or pedestrian friendly. I can do the same where I live at 41st and Yale. Hence its one reason I live here. Yet even here I have to walk through a lot of parking lots and there is not really any pedestrian street life or sense of community.  

I remember when I stayed in Paris. (Tulsa was once called the Paris of the Midwest) and I could go down from my apartment and right there across the street, perhaps 15steps away were several restaurants. There was a world of stuff to see and do within a few blocks. There were always people outside sitting and chatting and mingling. It was so nice and so easy to get to meet and enjoy other peoples company. Can you say that about 71st and 129th st?

Then if you wanted to go to other parts of the town you could just hop on a bus or the underground and easily get there. And even the places that were a 20 minute walk or so away it was a pleasant enjoyable, easy walk. Can you say that about 129th and 71st?

As for the skyline I would rather see a dozen or more 6 story buildings many with shops below than another skyscraper. Not to mention as someone said, you cant just build a skyscraper for any other reason than to add to the skyline. You need it to actually make money and have people in it. We need to get people in the ones we have now. And the office thing isnt working, they seem to be dong much better being converted into conndos or apartments.

There are people who like living in the suburbs, and having their businesses and offices in the suburbs. But there are also a lot of people who like living and working in pleasing urban environments as well. Tulsas downtown has the potential to have that. A better balance of living, working, shopping, playing, etc. downtown.

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I believe that safeway store closed up on Denver/15th due to high crime. I believe latter some other business took it over and they closed up too. I think that building is still standing there vacant. To improve Tulsa's skyline they need to build more skyscrapers. It'll be great if they would put up a few 800-1000' skyscrapers. The BOK tower is only 667' feet tall and is the tallest building in Oklahoma. (667' feet is really not that tall). As for the comments above about living downtown and being able get get around without a car, you can do the same thing living at other parts of the city. If you Live near 81st and RiverSide Drive and you can walk to Wal-Mart and restaurants and your even close to the RiverSide jogging trails. You can also get along with out a car living around 129th street and 71st. You have tons of stores and restaurants why do you need to drive? I can name other areas of Tulsa where you can live without a car and still do shopping/night life and all are without living downtown... Living downtown I just don't understand why. It makes no sense as I see it, or so it seems to me.[]

BOK tower is taller than anything in your beloved Omaha, too.  It's also taller than anything in Austin, which is a city twice our size.  Our downtown is probably one of our best pieces of identity....I can't say that I think we need MORE skyscrapers.  At this point, i want to see more midrise and lowrise construction.

[tulsascoot]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

I believe that safeway store closed up on Denver/15th due to high crime. I believe latter some other business took it over and they closed up too. I think that building is still standing there vacant. To improve Tulsa's skyline they need to build more skyscrapers. It'll be great if they would put up a few 800-1000' skyscrapers. The BOK tower is only 667' feet tall and is the tallest building in Oklahoma. (667' feet is really not that tall). As for the comments above about living downtown and being able get get around without a car, you can do the same thing living at other parts of the city. If you Live near 81st and RiverSide Drive and you can walk to Wal-Mart and restaurants and your even close to the RiverSide jogging trails. You can also get along with out a car living around 129th street and 71st. You have tons of stores and restaurants why do you need to drive? I can name other areas of Tulsa where you can live without a car and still do shopping/night life and all are without living downtown... Living downtown I just don't understand why. It makes no sense as I see it, or so it seems to me.[]

When we talk about downtown, the residents of the AREA are included. Everyone who lives just south of DT, east of DT, west of DT will use services DT if they are there. This includes a lot of people who, like me, grew up in the suburbs and live near DT now. It also includes a good deal of wealthy Tulsans who choose older neighborhoods and homes with character rather than "shopping mart" sprawl and the pollution  created by the people who commute DT everyday, instead of living closer to where they work. I would never go back south because the traffic sucks! I never deal with traffic now, and I never or rarely pay for parking downtown.

And the Safeway closed because it was old and run down. Once the Albertson's opened at 15th and Lewis, it was only a matter of time.

You are so uniformed it's laughable.

[wenwilwa]

quote:Originally posted by tulsascoot

You are so uniformed it's laughable.

I don't know that sauerkraut's level of information is laughable as much as it is normal. There are lots of happy suburbanites who share his opinions... very few on this forum, but so many in and around our city that it makes this forum relevant.

[Porky]

I for one would enjoy going back downtown again. But there's no venues worthy of a night out.

I think the Brady district does well with the younger crowd but that's all I can see that the city has to offer, unless one is into the PAC stuff and occasional festivals of sorts.

No one is going to be putting in nice eateries and etc until the homeless are gone and it's just that simple. We have a downtown that could be one of the best in the nation for entertainment but we give it to the homeless instead.

[TheArtist]

I dont know of many downtowns that dont have homeless people. Yet they do just fine. I don't think its the homeless peoples fault that more businesses arent downtown.  Having said that though, there are several new initiatives underway to help these people.

http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/news/38681.html

There is a new facility being built at Harvard and Apache across from the TCC Campus there. It will be an 80,000 sq foot "campus village".

http://www.tulsabusinessjournal.com/print_article.asp?aID=45631

There are a lot of things going on in downtown. Many are small things being done by small developers in the Blue Dome district and Brady Arts district.

Hopefully we will soon have a new art museum and artists lofts in the Brady District. Many new small businesses have begun renovating buildings ther and moving in. Several small and large buidings around downtown are being Turned into loft apartments and condos.

http://www.mayolofts.com/features.html

http://www.philtower.com/

http://www.argtulsa.com/Property%20Info/Tribune%20Lofts/TribuneLofts.htm

and lots others.

As more begin living downtown and more people start visiting, it will then be more likely that other retail, restaurant, and entertainment venues will begin locating there.

You may not want to go downtown now. You may not be the kind of person who would ever want to go down there. But, hopefully a bustling, urban village type environment will develop for people who do enjoy living in and visiting such places.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Porky

I for one would enjoy going back downtown again. But there's no venues worthy of a night out.

I think the Brady district does well with the younger crowd but that's all I can see that the city has to offer, unless one is into the PAC stuff and occasional festivals of sorts.

No one is going to be putting in nice eateries and etc until the homeless are gone and it's just that simple. We have a downtown that could be one of the best in the nation for entertainment but we give it to the homeless instead.

I agree with your first paragraph. Its either/or downntown. Upscale cultural or young watering holes. But I don't see the connection with the homeless. I was there last nite at the Blues Festival and cruised on by Brady and Blue Dome. Didn't see any homeless. There was still the feeling of "danger" downtown simply because of its vacant feeling. I don't know why there aren't more mainstream stuff, but homeless seem to be a small component.

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I dont know of many downtowns that dont have homeless people. Yet they do just fine. I don't think its the homeless peoples fault that more businesses arent downtown.  Having said that though, there are several new initiatives underway to help these people.

Glad to see they are somewhat addressing the problem. Minneapolis addressed it in the proper way and it worked out wonderfully for all factions.

What would happen if they moved all the homeless to the Hwy 169 and 71st area? It would ruin every form of business that is there and that is why nothing can be done downtown right now.

quote:
You may not want to go downtown now. You may not be the kind of person who would ever want to go down there. But, hopefully a bustling, urban village type environment will develop for people who do enjoy living in and visiting such places.

I go downtown Minneapolis and other cities that have it set up properly and enjoy it greatly. I was in Huntington Beach last week and couldn't get enough of their downtown.

Something I saw in Huntington Beach that I thought would work here is their parking garages. They are built directly behind the businesses on their main street and you walk out from the parking garage in a mall like structure onto the main street. The parking was also free if you ate at one of the establishments that lined their main street.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wow.  Just wow.

Do you think business just come in and build sky scrappers for fun, or to make the skyline pretty?  No, they build them because they need office space in Tulsa and they want to be downtown.

Right now, office space is just getting to a respectable level and people are just thinking about wanting to be downtown.  Until both of those things are firmly in demand, don't hold your breath.  

and as for 1000 feet... there are 10 (TEN!) buildings in the USA that are over 1000 feet.  Those are in Chicago, New York, LA and one in Atlanta.  800 feet gets you in the top 40.  The BOk Tower would be the tallest building in our neighbors Kansas, New Mexico, Arkansas, or Missouri  (38 other states in all).

While I would love to see our skyline grow, it will only grow as fast as demand for office space.  I hope that happens, but until it does, be damn proud of the skyline we currently offer.


(side note:  if you want to see something amazing/scary, look under construction and see how many times the worl d"Dubai" appears:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_the_world)

I was just saying that if they built tall skyscrapers the Tulsa Skyline would really look nifty. A single 900'-1,000' tower would grab your eyes and a few 800' skyscrapers nearby would boost up the shape of the skyline. DownTown Indianapolis has a 811' Skyscraper that really looks nifty. it helps shape the skyline people see from a distance. Small short buildings do not make a nice city skyline outline from a distance. A nice looking downtown skyline also helps sell a city to outsiders. It looks nice on post cards, it's a good thing. But there has to be a need to build tall buildings- I agree.

[TheArtist]

Who is "they" ?

I can dream hundreds of things that would really be nifty and make Tulsa look attracive on postcards. Who couldnt? But whats the point if it cant be done? Plus our buildings are taller than many cities that are more well known and have more to show on postcards. Its not just about tall buildings and since we cant just build tall buildings I suggest we focus on the things we can do and have some influence with.