$B-B-BILLION Jenks River Development Lure Driller

[deinstein]

ANNEX JENKS!

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Trolley system in the works.

Dreamer. Been in the works for at least 6years. Your dislike of boats and water keeps you from thinking big.

6 years or not, ya got to have enough of the developments done and critical mass of people going to them to make it work before you put them to use. Once the Riverwalk is done ( that developer said he would try to get a trolley once both parts of his development were done) and once this River District gets going there will be enough people and need to use it.
The comment I made was in relation to the number of people apparently expected to have problems getting to the new ballpark. That would sound like the perfect catalyst, if there ever was any, to get a trolley stysem going, especially if they have been saying they want one eventually. No need to put it into place until there is a real need for it.

Creating a more urban type environment where there isnt a lot of parking is actually a good thing to spur mass transit options like a trolley and water taxi. I am not against a water taxi, just throwing out a possible solution. From what I can tell the dam is going to be just upstream from the proposed stadium. People can still use the water taxi to get to the River district and other areas along the river but they can also use the trolleys as well.  

I use the water taxies at Disney World all the time and really like them, just so you know. [] And I like using the monorail and the Mickey Buses too. []

There are parking problems at the current Driller stadium. Only on special occassions do they relent and offer shuttles. Someone has to pay, the Drillers won't, the county won't. Apparently the consumer won't either. One trolley operator tried to connect downtown development, Cherry Street and Brookside with a system. Plenty of density there. Couldn't make it work. The same guy offered trolley service to Jenks Antique center to link with the Aquarium and Riverwalk. Denied. Bill White has answers as to why. It isn't incompetence or lack of density.

See a pattern here?

Yea. Your a complete loon. We have had discussions as to why the "Brookside, Cherry Street, Downtown" thing didnt work on other threads. I am not going into it yet again.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

jenks should just get an mls team and leave the drillers alone...

no downtown should get an MLS team for all the worldly weirdos that collect down there.  put America's Pastime where the attendees will be.

[Kenosha]

Looking at that plan...how do they plan to accommodate 7000 people exiting that parking lot at the baseball stadium simultaneously?

[Renaissance]

Do you know what world has not been uttered once to describe this development?

SPRAWL.

That's what it is.  It's total urban sprawl at the expense of the city core.  That's what so many of us who call the city home are reacting against.  Yes, it's a very pretty development, but outside the outer loop of the city!  That's why Tulsans don't give a **** about it.  We live in the city so we don't HAVE to drive 30 minutes to do things.  It may as well be an outlet mall in Stroud.

Yes, it will be a nice park.  But it's another step towards a city in which, to do anything at all, you must spend hours in the car.  If you are an enthusiast of the automobile commute, by all means applaud away.  Otherwise, call this spade a spade: SPRAWL.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Looking at that plan...how do they plan to accommodate 7000 people exiting that parking lot at the baseball stadium simultaneously?

I don't know the plan but the concept of a venue centered sports facility is simple; Patrons don't all arrive or depart the area at the same time; Some come early, enjoy the area, go to the game, and go home directly home afterwards; Some leave late and enjoy the are before leaving; And some come to the game and leave right after.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Do you know what world has not been uttered once to describe this development?

SPRAWL.

That's what it is.  It's total urban sprawl at the expense of the city core.  That's what so many of us who call the city home are reacting against.  Yes, it's a very pretty development, but outside the outer loop of the city!  That's why Tulsans don't give a **** about it.  We live in the city so we don't HAVE to drive 30 minutes to do things.  It may as well be an outlet mall in Stroud.

Yes, it will be a nice park.  But it's another step towards a city in which, to do anything at all, you must spend hours in the car.  If you are an enthusiast of the automobile commute, by all means applaud away.  Otherwise, call this spade a spade: SPRAWL.

Wrong.  Have you ever been to the Jenks Riverwalk?  It has something downtown Tulsa and the 71st street areas don't have... walkability.  It's an easier and shorter drive from Broken Arrow, south Tulsa and east Tulsa than driving to downtown.

It's pleasant... it's walkable.  Wish downtown Tulsa had something like it, but the downtown-squatter mafia want their pound of flesh and will stop at nothing to get it.  I'd love to live in walkable urbanity but that ain't happening in Tulsa... if it happens in Jenks, more power to 'em.

After visiting the Aquarium and the Riverwalk, I no longer consider Jenks to be a suburb anymore.  Jenks is a "bedroom community."

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Looking at that plan...how do they plan to accommodate 7000 people exiting that parking lot at the baseball stadium simultaneously?

Somehow, they're able to do it for Jenks High School football... ain't rocket science, ya' know...

[Renaissance]

This development is suburban sprawl by its very definition, brother.  Your compliments to Riverwalk are lipstick on a pig.  I understand you find it pleasant.  My point is that it's ultimately undesirable for a healthy urban area to force folks to take a TOLL ROAD for MILES and MILES just to pretend they're in the middle of walkable urbanity.  Get it?  

Not. A. Good. Thing.  

You hate the condition of the roads?  Stop building destinations 15 miles from the center of town so that more street maintainence is required.  You don't like the empty state of things downtown?  Put something there instead.

Rufnex--I hear you talking about Chicago a lot--Wrigleyville, etc.--like it's what you want.  Well this is like moving the Cubs to the North Shore suburbs and surrounding New Wrigley with parking lots and malls.  Sure, it's pretty and there's rich people up there, but you're taking the soul out of the city.

Not. A. Good. Thing.

Don't you realize that the same thing could be plopped down in the middle of downtown Tulsa if this city had leadership?  I'm not talking about political leadership.  I'm talking about responsible developers who realize that the extra seed money to locate their pies-in-the-sky in the vital center will yield greater dividends for both their bank accounts and for the region.

Make no mistake: this development is a clear step AWAY from the goal of revitalizing Tulsa.  If you think it's desirable, your values lie outside the tollway, away from Tulsa's history and heritage.  It's a step towards the decline of Tulsa.  And if you don't think the decline of Tulsa means the decline of the region, you can't see past the tip of your nose.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

Looking at that plan...how do they plan to accommodate 7000 people exiting that parking lot at the baseball stadium simultaneously?

Artist has it all figured out. They're working on a Trolley system you know.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Trolley system in the works.

Dreamer. Been in the works for at least 6years. Your dislike of boats and water keeps you from thinking big.

6 years or not, ya got to have enough of the developments done and critical mass of people going to them to make it work before you put them to use. Once the Riverwalk is done ( that developer said he would try to get a trolley once both parts of his development were done) and once this River District gets going there will be enough people and need to use it.
The comment I made was in relation to the number of people apparently expected to have problems getting to the new ballpark. That would sound like the perfect catalyst, if there ever was any, to get a trolley stysem going, especially if they have been saying they want one eventually. No need to put it into place until there is a real need for it.

Creating a more urban type environment where there isnt a lot of parking is actually a good thing to spur mass transit options like a trolley and water taxi. I am not against a water taxi, just throwing out a possible solution. From what I can tell the dam is going to be just upstream from the proposed stadium. People can still use the water taxi to get to the River district and other areas along the river but they can also use the trolleys as well.  

I use the water taxies at Disney World all the time and really like them, just so you know. [] And I like using the monorail and the Mickey Buses too. []

There are parking problems at the current Driller stadium. Only on special occassions do they relent and offer shuttles. Someone has to pay, the Drillers won't, the county won't. Apparently the consumer won't either. One trolley operator tried to connect downtown development, Cherry Street and Brookside with a system. Plenty of density there. Couldn't make it work. The same guy offered trolley service to Jenks Antique center to link with the Aquarium and Riverwalk. Denied. Bill White has answers as to why. It isn't incompetence or lack of density.

See a pattern here?

Yea. Your a complete loon. We have had discussions as to why the "Brookside, Cherry Street, Downtown" thing didnt work on other threads. I am not going into it yet again.

There's no need for attitude. I owned & operated a shuttle bus, I had discussions with a man named Lund, (Brad, I think) who owned and operated two trolleys advertised in UT. Then spent time discussing the business with Bill White and his employees. Somehow I missed your in depth discussion on this forum. Were any of those experienced operators contributing?

Here's the bottom line. The only reason it works in OKC is the huge draw of the Murrah. Even so it is subsidized. No private trolley system will work here because of the MTTA. They will eventually operate one if anyone does, and it will be subsidized by the taxpayer cause they lose money even in a developed area. Even Bill White would have difficulty without the DTU contract to pay the overhead. Check out the website "trolleybroker.com" and look at who is selling their trolleys...municipalities mostly. The only other ones come from high tourist traffic areas like Niagara, San Francisco etc.

[TheArtist]

I meant "loon" in the friendliest sort of way of course.[]

[Wrinkle]

But...but...., what about the 'region' guys?

Anything that helps one, helps us all.
That's what our Tulsa Regional Government always says, especially when Tulsa is on the giving end.

In this case, Tulsa (the City) currently derives little benefit from the Drillers being on County land, except the road improvement/maintenance work required to support traffic.

Technically, there's no real loss to Tulsa involved here. It's that someone is messing with the Mayor's (and cohorts') plans.

I recall in the late 70's, the Chicago Bears signed a contract to move out to Arlington Heights, and a brand new stadium....didn't go over well with Mayor Daley, who promptly shook his finger and said he'd sue if they tried to use "Chicago" in their name. Immediately began calling them the "Arlington Heights Bears".

Didn't stick around to see what actually happened, but they never moved, and also did not get the new stadium they demanded in the first place. Though, I think Soldier Field was renovated.

Frankly, this is a premediatated (near genius) business negotiation being performed by Driller's ownership.

Even if they lose, they win.

Nice position to be in.

The Mayor's p.o.'d cuz it's now going to cost her a heap more, and that's out of pocket since she'll never be able to get tax support for a new stadium.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

jenks should just get an mls team and leave the drillers alone...

Easier said than done.  The timing on this still smells like the Drillers want to use a potential move to Jenks against the city of Tulsa as "leverage" for a preferred downtown ballpark.  I don't think the Drillers want to pay a nickel of their own $$$ for a brand new stadium.  They've been doing just fine $$$-wise at the Fairgrounds for years now, thank you very much... I think their heart is set on the East End location after they tried to piggyback off Global Development Partners when the soccer deal fell through... And I think the Drillers want a higher cut of concessions (overpriced hotdogs, chips, pop & beer) than the city of Tulsa is willing to give them.  

The city wants to transform the Drillers from a Fairgrounds county-tax deadbeat to a downtown city-tax cash cow.  Funny how Mayor Taylor emailed her constituents to put pressure on the Drillers to locate downtown.  Notice how she didn't say anything about them staying at the Fairgrounds... that's because she's kicking them out!  And she didn't say anything about the river, because I bet the Drillers found the prospects of playing at 23rd and S. Jackson unacceptable for a variety of reasons... this is all about who pays and how much... and which location is ultimately acceptable...

this location east of OSU-Tulsa was quoted from KOTV... "Sportyart to the white courtesy phone, please... sportyart to the white courtesy phone..."


BTW, an MLS team would be much more expensive in many different ways.  The most obvious is that they would require a 20k-seat stadium versus 7k or 8k.  Tulsa's grassroots efforts at MLS have always been a day late and a dollar short... and as long as the city of Tulsa decides that a potential Major League Soccer team could or should play second-fiddle to double-A baseball, TULSA WILL NEVER GET A TEAM... EVER.

Tulsa could have had David Beckham and his international media/paparazzi entourage playing T-town a couple of times per year... I mean, we see Tiger Woods twice a decade, if we're lucky...

The Drillers have a team in Tulsa and an owner... Major League Soccer for Tulsa has neither.  

For your entertainment, here's Tulsa's current local ownership group for MLS... (tip your waiters, try the veal)...

1.  No comment.
2.  Speak with my lawyer.
3.  I signed a "confidentiality agreement."
4.  No really, I signed a "confidentiality agreement."  Get off my back about this.
5.  The Easter Bunny.
6.  The Tooth Fairy.
7.  Jimmy Hoffa.
8.  If you spill the beans, I'm gonna tell the media you voted democrat in two different states at the same time just like I did to... er, uh... <click>.

***I honestly don't know if "Corky" was part of the Tulsa group for MLS, he was just on my list of suspects... []

Of course, on Tues. night's News on 6, we get this...

http://kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134394

quote:Don Himelfarb has been negotiating a deal between the city and the Drillers and he says his orders haven't changed.

"The mayor has said to me that we should leave no stone unturned in ensuring that Drillers stay in the city of Tulsa, and that more importantly we locate them within the IDL, downtown," Economic Development Director Don Himelfarb said.

If he fails it wouldn't be the first time the Drillers almost moved downtown. In 1997, a model was created for a sales tax vote called The Tulsa Project. The stadium was never built because voters rejected the tax. Last year, a developer's map showed a baseball stadium downtown in a project called The East End. The stadium would have been built east of 4th and Frankfort, but the deal fell through and a new developer bought the land for, among other things, a Wal-Mart Super Center.

Okay, if they mentioned the East End and failed to give credit to the soccer people who attracted the developers in the first place, that's forgivable... but when KOTV acts like the Drillers were promised a downtown ballbark for the 1997 Tulsa Project and then show a picture of this?!?!?...


"Doggone it Earl, that don't look like no ballpark to me... heh-heh, me neither..."

[TheArtist]

OOOOOOH,,,, AAAAAAH.... OOOOOO []

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:

That plan couldn't suck any worse.

Ballpark surrounded by a sea of asphalt next to a detention pond. It's a "river" location with most of the surface parking along the river and the ballpark hundreds of feet inland. How freakin' creative. Might as well put it in a cow pasture for as much as the ballpark interracts with the river. Terrible access too. Look at the tiny little roads leading to the ballpark and how few there are. Pinned in by the toll road.

Not walkable. Nothing to walk to. By the time you walk to the stuff to the north, you might as well drive there rather than walk all the way back to the parking lot. And you'd be a LONG way from Riverwalk Crossing.

Looks to me as though the ballpark is a complete afterthought in that plan. Like they had leftover land reserved for phase two and decided to plop a stadium on it. Not integrated well at all.