$B-B-BILLION Jenks River Development Lure Driller

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by swake

These are the same people that had the "Do The River First" signs during the vote for 2025. The argument for them changes, but it's always "no", and you get what you pay for. Always.

The "Do the River First" signs were not from the Vision 2025 campaign. David McKinney launched that campaign after Four to Fix the County II was announced in the fall of 2005. And as far as I know, that is the only campaign in which Mr. McKinney has been active.

There's a big difference between tax increases for non-essential projects and "if we build it they will come" wishful thinking, and taxes that go directly to basic city services. With the exception of one or two people, every one I know that you would call "anti-tax" has supported tax renewals for basic infrastructure and basic services.

I voted for every third-penny sales tax except the 2006 edition, and the only reason I voted against that is because I thought the newly-elected mayor and council should determine what would be in the next five-year package. I would have supported an extension of the 2001 tax to finish those projects, followed by a new package.

I endorsed and voted for the first Four to Fix the County in 2000, because it was a renewal of an existing tax and addressed significant county infrastructure needs.

I've voted for and endorsed each city bond issue for as far back as I can remember. If you added up all the dollar amounts of taxes I've voted for in the last 10 years, it would total well over $1 billion.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by swake

If Tulsa were to bring it's property tax rates up to what people in Jenks pay, the capital projects that could be done in the city would be amazing.

The City of Jenks levies 15.72 mills. The City of Tulsa levies 12.67 mills. Raising Tulsa's millage to Jenks' level would raise an additional $7.9 million a year. That's not nothing, but compared to the $385 million proposed 2008 street bond issue, it's a drop in the bucket.

http://www.treasurer.tulsacounty.org/documents/County_of_Tulsa_2006_Levies_Detail.pdf

Surprisingly, Owasso doesn't levy any property tax at all.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

This is all about private investors making business decisions.  Jenks is booming.  The Jenks Riverwalk and Aquarium are successful.  There are young families galore in the the suburban areas and the area will just continue to grow.  This PRIVATELY FUNDED development will prosper for these reasons.

And there's something else I want to address.

The idea that this is a "private" development that doesn't cost any tax dollars. While that is true on the face of it, understand this. Jenks has very good schools, the streets are all recently paved, Jenks has the lowest crime in the metro, and more factors that all lead to the demographics that make a "private" development like this possible.

Something else Jenks has, is the highest overall taxes in the entire region, if not state. And Jenks still has all the same operational budget problems Tulsa does. Jenks certainly is paying for this project, just not directly.

If Tulsa were to bring it's property tax rates up to what people in Jenks pay, the capital projects that could be done in the city would be amazing. But most of the same group that is against the river (and everything) would be against that tax increase too.

These are the same people that had the "Do The River First" signs during the vote for 2025. The argument for them changes, but it's always "no", and you get what you pay for. Always.

I always thought the higher property taxes had to do with the school system.  You pay higher property tax anywhere within the Jenks district.  Move a few blocks out of the district and your property tax rate drops by a fair amount.  Same with Union School District.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

If Tulsa were to bring it's property tax rates up to what people in Jenks pay, the capital projects that could be done in the city would be amazing.

The City of Jenks levies 15.72 mills. The City of Tulsa levies 12.67 mills. Raising Tulsa's millage to Jenks' level would raise an additional $7.9 million a year. That's not nothing, but compared to the $385 million proposed 2008 street bond issue, it's a drop in the bucket.

http://www.treasurer.tulsacounty.org/documents/County_of_Tulsa_2006_Levies_Detail.pdf

Surprisingly, Owasso doesn't levy any property tax at all.

How is education funded in Owasso?  I had always thought that property tax helps pay for public schools and Owasso has had a lot of new building projects and renovations going on for years.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

If Tulsa were to bring it's property tax rates up to what people in Jenks pay, the capital projects that could be done in the city would be amazing.

The City of Jenks levies 15.72 mills. The City of Tulsa levies 12.67 mills. Raising Tulsa's millage to Jenks' level would raise an additional $7.9 million a year. That's not nothing, but compared to the $385 million proposed 2008 street bond issue, it's a drop in the bucket.

http://www.treasurer.tulsacounty.org/documents/County_of_Tulsa_2006_Levies_Detail.pdf

Surprisingly, Owasso doesn't levy any property tax at all.

I was not grouping you into this argument, I know you are not against everything, but there is a certain radio station, newspaper and a group of bloggers that ARE against every tax vote, no matter what it is for.

Oddly. I have heard former streets commissioner Hewgley say that Tulsa is short about $8 million a year on road maintenance, that's almost exactly what you say Tulsa is short of Jenks a year. Also, Jenks has passed a GO bond that likely isn't included in those figures from 2006 so the gap is likely wider now.

Also, the millage that you are quoting is city bond issues only. People don't move to Jenks for the great roads, it's schools, less expensive housing and a child centric culture. The crime rate doesn't hurt, but in reality most of Tulsa has low crime too. Schools are a huge issue. The city of Tulsa needs to be working overtime with developers that would like to build in JPS in west Tulsa. That area is set to boom.

Jenks Schools millage is 132.55 vs 118.35 for TPS. Combine the two and millage in Jenks/Jenks Schools is 148.27 vs 131.02 for Tulsa/Tulsa Schools. And, urban TPS has all kinds of issues that are very expensive to deal with that Suburban Jenks just simply doesn't. TPS needs more than Jenks to achieve at the same level, not less.

[jackbristow]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

Raising Tulsa's millage to Jenks' level would raise an additional $7.9 million a year. That's not nothing, but compared to the $385 million proposed 2008 street bond issue, it's a drop in the bucket.

There you go.  The road issue is a whole other discussion and will require something else entirely.  Frankly, I'm for the tax for the river development and any road bond issue that comes up in the next year or so.  I can handle paying an additional $10 a month in sales tax if it means I will have a nicer city to live in.  

I realize that some things we want take public money because there isn't anything to attract business on the front end (i.e. downtown and the river).  It would be nice if the tax packages would be more comprehensive and complete and address everything we want all at once, but I know that the real world isn't that simple, so I don't vote no on things on principal, because then nothing would ever get done.  

Tell us more about the proposed 2008 street bond issue.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

What do you mean?  The mayor does not have the  authority to kick anyone off the fairgrounds.  That's entirely up to the fairboard.

Point taken.  But I have to ask: Why does it look like the fairboard is kicking out the Drillers (still smells like the city's swaying the fairboard more than the other way around)... I'd be naive if I didn't think the city wasn't at the very least, throwing its weight around... and why does the city of Tulsa want the Drillers downtown so badly?  

I may not know all the minutae of city and county government... just following the money.

[RecycleMichael]

But baseball players are among the most superstitious people around.

I would think the players would not want to play in a town named Jinx.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

But baseball players are among the most superstitious people around.

I would think the players would not to play in a town named Jinx.

Actually Mike, Jenks and Bixby are thinking about joining forces.....

They will become one town known as "Jixby"....

That way they will have at least ten Police officers to do crowd control at the "Jixby Drillers" games.

[}:)]

[Double A]

I think we should get rid of Big Splash and build a new ballpark for the Drillers on that space. RM was very eloquent at the Council meeting, I really do appreciate what he had to say. It was a very poignant moment when he spoke about Drillers games at the Fairgrounds being a gathering place that we already have as a city, where people from across the city come together, that we don't have to create. Thank you for your thoughtful comments and   for choosing not to promote a specific location in Tulsa for the Drillers to locate(like the Mayor), just that they stay in Tulsa.

[RecycleMichael]

Thank you doubleA.

[pmcalk]

^^Wow.  I think H*ll just froze over.

[Aa5drvr]

Funny and if you think back, there was an amusement park not far from there......hmmmmmm

[TheArtist]

That wasnt an amusement park. It was a nasty mess that kept getting worse every year. Unless the amusement was that it was called an amusement park.

[tim huntzinger]

It may have been a nasty mess, Paintin' Billy, but there was no point in smashing Zingo.

The more I look at the Jenks development the more it looks mish-mash.  If they wanted an 'urban' experience why not wrap the retail around the stadium?  I suppose this has to do with the stbility of the river bank, but why not put it closer to the river instead of seperating the stadium the two by a baking hot parking lot?

And is this crew easily connected by a Medlock-o-gram to Ron Howell?