Tulsa could smell like a rose

[CoffeeBean]

The smell is only a portion of the equation.  While I'm sure urban enthusiasts may revel at the sight of a river-fronting refinery, potential developers looking to open the next Cheesecake Factory or Chipolte will probably look elsewhere, e.g. Jenks, Bixby, Oklahoma City, or any other place not accompanied by the one-two punch of sulfur/methane and the industrial artistry of refining oil.

Seriously – do you really think a developer would jeopardize a multi-million dollar investment by placing it in close proximity to such turn-offs if another location presented the same benefit without  the drawback?  So, again - explain to me why a developer would select the current west bank as a good investment idea?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I think the quickest way to get something done about the smell is to have some big development complaining about it, investors complaining about it, taxpayers complaining that they spent money and they cant use their investment because of the smell, and a lot more people down there noticing it and complaining about it.

So it sounds to me like what people are really saying is... We dont want any development down there because then we will HAVE to pay to have the smell fixed?

Because we all know the one sure way to NOT get anything done about it is continue as we have with no development down there.

Agreed.  I'm not a naysayer for the sake of being one.  This is not well thought-out and just because one of our county commissioners set an arbitrary deadline to vote on this doesn't mean we have to jump at the first opportunity.  I really don't care to hand over additional tax dollars for a new plan with many gaps and un-answered questions.  If the private funds can be made available now, they can be made available in the future if it really is in the hearts of these generous Tulsans to do what is best for Tulsa.

However, this will be the "catch" at the expiration of the new River Tax.  "Now we need to clean up the refineries and sewage plants.  Open pockets.  Rinse.  Spit.  Repeat."

If they build it, it smells like crap and no one comes to spend money there, businesses fail and we wind up with a bunch of vacant commercial space down by the river until we mitigate this mess.

I like the idea of river development.  I just can't believe the speed with which this is being rushed through when there are some obvious pitfalls which await us on this, and yet it's all being glossed over or justified by a windfall of new tax revenue which can only happen if more people come to the area.  

Creating 4500 service-wage level jobs from the existing worker pool in Tulsa certainly isn't going to raise the kind of additional sales tax revenue proponets are gloming onto.  People are not going to move to Tulsa to take retail and entertainment jobs.  Just not going to happen.

[sauerkraut]

I hope OKC is not doing something to hurt Tulsa's air. I have never noticed foul smells when I'm in Tulsa. Maybe it's my nose cold or maybe it's because I'm not paying any attention.

[Hometown]

Well, DScott expressed what I believe about Tulsa and the refineries

DScott said:  "I really hate that the refineries located along the west bank so many years ago. Just imagine the type of development and growth the west bank could've seen! It could've slowed the massive explosion of growth that pushed Tulsa further South and East, instead of around its Central Business District (and downtown could've actually been central)... It could've done a lot for the area, and who knows, Tulsa today could've been an actual river town. Then we wouldn't even be in a predicament about the pollution and stench of refineries and river development... It would've occurred naturally."

Next best thing to moving the refineries?  Eliminating the odor (Tulsa World says it is doable though I have my doubts).

Now when I was living in Lortondale during my teen years, I never smelled the refineries.  So some Tulsans may really have never smelled the refineries.

Smell elimination should have happened a long time ago but that doesn't mean I won't support the river plan.  I'm not convinced about the economic benefits argument but I like the plan.  If all we get out of this is a beefed up river parks, it's worth it.

Here's an aside about developing new revenue:  If I was Tulsa and I needed to add revenue and residents I would invest money in developing infrastructure on the north side where there is still plenty of land that could be developed as new neighborhoods.

I live on the north side and my prayer is that our city planners won't do to the north side what they did to the south side – horrendous city planning, strip malls, excessive signage and asphalt from here to eternity.

I first saw the word "naysayer" in a recent Tulsa World editorial.  Fascinating word, and I would guess very old.  I don't think anyone outside of Tulsa is still using this word.  "Critic" would probably be the word more frequently used today.

[Conan71]

If it weren't for the refineries on the west bank, Tulsa would have never had the seeds for growth which has gotten it to this point.  In fact, many of us might live in other areas of the country now if it weren't for the economic and infrastructure legacy oil has provided our city.

I believe private industry like the refineries can clean up the smells further and do it a lot more efficiently than a public trust.  Plenty has been done about their emissions over the years and it sounds like work is continuing.  

I honestly don't see how smell can be mitigated from open pits and drying beds though unless they are moved far from the river into a sparsely-populated rural area which just would not be practical.

[shadows]

Waterboy quoted:
Why don't you use your energies to demand cleaner burning refineries, better waste treatment facilities and more stringent requirements on river discharges. One could make the argument that if we abstain from river development, like you wish, because the refineries and waste treatment plants are fouling the river, then no effort needs to be made to stop such fouling because no one uses the river anyway. That is what "no change" does. It freezes us in time so we can complain for ever about the same things. Groundhog day.
**********************************************
I have tried for years to change anything in the city through two types of government and the only thing that changed was the knots on my forehead where I was beating my head against the brick wall of the bureaucrats control.

The changing of the river is liken building three ponds which hold impurities in the sands.  The Keystone dam cuts off the water supply in the dry season.  The foolish effort to change this open storm sewer, that drains the street into them, selling the 5% of the people that will go to it but expecting the other 95% to pay for it, stretches ones imagination even beyond the fairy tales.

There was a editor of a ghost town magazine in Tulsa that was to open the Zink Rifle range with a gold bullet panned from the gold dust being washed down from the upper reaches of the Arkansas River.  The Keystone dam shut off this source of gold but some could have designated it as a gold strike instead of thinking they can change the river into an fairy land that will produce millions of dollars in taxes.  Having been familiar with the river I think it will be in reversed order. Billions in construction with the return in thousands.  

As most of the water from the streets drain into the river. Where do you think would be the best place to drain them?     Drain them in the river going though OC?    

[aoxamaxoa]

Tulsa will stink as long as this forum exists.

The moderators, administrators, editors (hiders?) have disclosed my name, my moniker, and my password to other posters and even those who do not post but keep a watchful eye here.

WARNING...you may be the next victim.

[TheArtist]

DScott said: "I really hate that the refineries located along the west bank so many years ago. Just imagine the type of development and growth the west bank could've seen! It could've slowed the massive explosion of growth that pushed Tulsa further South and East, instead of around its Central Business District (and downtown could've actually been central)... It could've done a lot for the area, and who knows, Tulsa today could've been an actual river town. Then we wouldn't even be in a predicament about the pollution and stench of refineries and river development... It would've occurred naturally."



Those refineries helped build Tulsa. Without them Tulsa wouldn't have become half the city it is. Our history would be completely different. DScott you need to do a little reading about Tulsas history and learn about what built this city. Tulsa has a wonderful and fascinating history and those refineries are integral to that.  

Tulsa was situated near both the great Glenn and Cushing Pools, and within a radius of one hundred miles there were several hundred small pools. Tulsans lived on the east side but built a bridge which enabled the workers on the west side, where the oil fields were, to get to and from Tulsa. But there were plenty of other small towns in the area, some larger than Tulsa. Then Tulsa built a modern hotel, which attracted the wealthier operators and caused them to make Tulsa their headquarters. Then came the establishment of oil well supply houses, machine shops and of course the refineries. The money from those refineries and oil industries was a major part of Tulsas success. Tulsa didnt have the oil, but it supplied the industry, refined the oil, and served as a home base.

Skyscrapers were built, Philtower, Philcade, First national Bank, Mid Continent... Grand homes in mid town like Philbrook and Gilcrease. The airport and the aviation industry are a direct result of the oil industry "the Stud Note". Utica Square the result of the pipe and rig industry. Southern Hills.  The grand downtown churches. So many things that we consider treasures wouldnt be here if you could go back in time and "pluck" those refineries out of the history books. They are integral to and woven deeply into our history in many ways.


  Harry F. Sinclair begins oil production in Tulsa--the start of Sinclair Oil Co.

A group of oil men gather at the Hotel Tulsa to organize and make sure petroleum products are available to U.S. armed forces and allies. They form the Mid-Continent Oil & Gas Association

Mid-Continent Oil & Gas Association forms the Kansas-Oklahoma Division headquartered in Tulsa.


(From the Sinclair history website)...
Sinclair and one of his many partners, Patrick J. White, bought crude oil from wildcatters for ten cents a barrel in every prolific field before pipeline outlets were available. Erecting steel tanks, the partners stored millions of gallons of bargain oil. When conditions stabilized, they sold the filled tanks at a $1.20 per barrel profit. By 1913, Sinclair bossed 62 oil companies, owned eight drilling rigs, and with his brother controlled a Tulsa bank. Producing from every mid-continent field, he settled in Tulsa, Oklahoma,

The year 1916 found Sinclair the mid-continent's largest oil independent. In one of his most famous snap judgments, Sinclair decided to fight the giants on their own ground. In one busy week, he blueprinted a $50 million enterprise to be engaged in every branch of the petroleum industry: crude oil production, pipelining and other transport, refining, and worldwide marketing.

A hundred miles west of Tulsa, a Sinclair wildcat penetrated a rich new oil basin with production at several depths. Sinclair had more than half the productive acreage under lease in this new Garber field. The oil was so rich that it sold for a premium price...Now the founder invited his New York bankers to see the new oil empire. By special train he escorted what the Tulsa newspapers described as "the biggest concentration of capital in the history of Oklahoma." )


(some other snippets from the web)

"Oil brought Waite Phillips to Tulsa in 1918. He worked several years with his brothers Frank and L.E. in Bartlesville, but desired to make an independent fortune. He bought leases west of Okmulgee and struck rich pools. With the addition of refineries, transportation and retail sales he created the Waite Phillips Company and moved his headquarters to Tulsa.

In 1928 Skelly along with Waite Phillips, Harry Rogers, Omar K Benedict and Cyrus S Avery, organized the Tulsa Airport Corporation. They along with 42 other Tulsans signed one of Tulsa's famous Stud Notes to underwrite the construction of a major metropolitan airport for Tulsa.

Gilcrease's personal 160 acre allotment happened to be smack atop one of the richest oil fields ever, the Glen Pool south of Tulsa. When he was 16 he sued for his majority rights, and by the age of 21 was a millionaire. "

"Almost since the time that Tulsa became a city, the Helmerich family has kept Tulsans intrigued with banner headline stories of the family's internationally known drilling company, Helmerich & Payne; the family's philanthropic endeavors and "gifts of millions" through the Helmerich Foundation; and their ownership and dream of making Utica Square one of the city's best-known landmarks. ..... "


Here is the simple version.
The pretty stuff in the background came from the ugly stuff in the foreground. []

[Hometown]

I'm a fan of oil (or at least big money) too.  But it would have made a huge difference for Tulsa if the refineries and other industry were located further away (and downwind) from downtown.

[waterboy]

They were far away from downtown at the time. They needed to be near the river since they are steam driven operations and needed a source of water and discharge.

I understand that there are many improvements coming to the refineries that will reduce their smells to nearly 10% of what they are now. RecycleM, since you sit on one of their advisory boards do you know anything about this?

[claygate39]

I was born in Tulsa and have lived out of state (and country) for the past 40 years or so. I am a Chemical Engineer by training and spent 35 years working for a major oil company here in the USA and abroad.

Let me say first off that refineries smell -- all of them. Doesn't make any difference whether they are in Tulsa, Aruba, Southampton, UK or Singapore ... they smell. It is the nature of the beast. Some smell worse than others but they all smell. Not only that but they will continue to smell. Refiners made big reductions in emissions over the past 15 years -- but those easy gains are done and they will be much smaller going forward.

Tulsa should be glad it just has refineries and not huge chemical plants nearby the refineries -- like south of Baton Rouge on the Mississippi or on along the Houston ship channel or Bayway NJ. The chemical plants REALLY SMELL.

Let me say a final word on river development in Tulsa. No one but no one plans leisure investment within view (or smell) of refineries. Refineries tend to devalue nearby property rather than vice versa. I suspect that this is the reason the river has not been developed near the plants up to now.

[Conan71]

And in case it's escaped anyone, Sinclair is slowly and quietly buying up the last of the frontage between the refinery and SW Blvd. and starting to buy parcels of land in Garden City.

[joiei]

The odors are not as noxious as where I grew up.  We not only had a couple of pulp wood paper mills, there was also a Chemstrand plant and an Air Products plant.  That was some bad smells going on.  And we lived over 20 miles from the paper mills but could still smell them when the wind was right.  I agree with Claygate39, it is here, it will always be here.  If you  don't want to smell it, get the refineries to close or move.  But that smell is historical to the life of Tulsa, keep that in mind.

[dbacks fan]

If you read Bob Gregory's book Oil in Oklahoma, he explains why the refineries are where they are. Oil was discovered in Sand Springs and Glenpool, but the rail lines ran along the river. They could bring in crude oil on the rails, and then ship out what they refined on the rails.

[Hometown]

Well it's interesting that NellieBly and Joiei find something positive in the smell.  And I suspect Claygate39 is right and the World is wrong about the possibility of eliminating refineries smells.

The Owen Park lawsuit alleged deaths from exposure to refinery emissions.  We are kind of dancing around the more central issue of Benzene (one refinery emission) and cancer in humans.  The smell is refinery particulates entering our bodies.

Glaygate 39, do you know anything about refineries and Benzene?

And RecycleMichael never responded to Rico's question about the EPA testing of the refineries that he talked about last year.  That thread concluded with some consensus that we deserve to know what the refineries are doing to our health.