Tulsa could smell like a rose

[RecycleMichael]

I will follow up with some questions and report back.

I am trying to do a lot of other things lately and I have kinda ignored "the river and west Tulsa stinks" responsibilty.

My main focus is land stuff, next air things and finally water issues.

I like to say I am not an air head or a water boy, I am a trash MAN.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I will follow up with some questions and report back.

I am trying to do a lot of other things lately and I have kinda ignored "the river and west Tulsa stinks" responsibilty.

My main focus is land stuff, next air things and finally water issues.

I like to say I am not an air head or a water boy, I am a trash MAN.

Been too busy making macaroni art "Save the Drillers" signs???[]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Well it's interesting that NellieBly and Joiei find something positive in the smell.  And I suspect Claygate39 is right and the World is wrong about the possibility of eliminating refineries smells.

The Owen Park lawsuit alleged deaths from exposure to refinery emissions.  We are kind of dancing around the more central issue of Benzene (one refinery emission) and cancer in humans.  The smell is refinery particulates entering our bodies.

Glaygate 39, do you know anything about refineries and Benzene?

And RecycleMichael never responded to Rico's question about the EPA testing of the refineries that he talked about last year.  That thread concluded with some consensus that we deserve to know what the refineries are doing to our health.

Hometown, I dissected the benzene issue for another poster awhile back, when I get around to it, I'll try to find the particular thread.

As I remember, we don't have a significantly higher benzene concentration than any other city our size.  Diesel being burned in trucks and construction equipment seems to be as much a contributor, if not moreso than benzene from refineries.  Essentially it's mobile sources (cars & trucks) which add the majority.  I believe refineries only contribute about 2% to total benzene emissions.

I'll see if I can find the post and link it.

Okay, here's the links I promised:

Tulsanow thread:

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6293

Quoted sources of interest in the thread:

http://www.scorecard.org/env-releases/def/hap_drivers.html#9902

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?geo=USA&pol=45201&city=1&typ=e&_service=nata&_program=nata1999.scl.comap.scl&_debug=2

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/nata1999/mapemis99.html

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?geo=USA&pol=80115&city=1&typ=e&_service=nata&_program=nata1999.scl.comap.scl&_debug=2

[AMP]

In addition to the aromas, there are also real industrial dangers involved with these operations.

Here are a few that have occured over the past few years, there are hundreds of other incidents documented.

What chemicals are in use at the Lift Station near I-44 at the River to treat the sewage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65wrGV3AEiA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JY3eT4cdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TworcINhDhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKBL1XHcB0

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

If you read Bob Gregory's book Oil in Oklahoma, he explains why the refineries are where they are. Oil was discovered in Sand Springs and Glenpool, but the rail lines ran along the river. They could bring in crude oil on the rails, and then ship out what they refined on the rails.

Well, yes. But water is why they both located next to the river. The railroads were also steam powered and needed a source of water. The yard arm pick ups and water tower platforms can still be found along the river. Did Bob Gregory note that?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

And in case it's escaped anyone, Sinclair is slowly and quietly buying up the last of the frontage between the refinery and SW Blvd. and starting to buy parcels of land in Garden City.

Why?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

And in case it's escaped anyone, Sinclair is slowly and quietly buying up the last of the frontage between the refinery and SW Blvd. and starting to buy parcels of land in Garden City.

Why?

My boss just sold some vacant lots he'd bought at tax auction some years back about two blocks south of the refinery and slightly west of the soccer field.  He said part of the reason is a buffer zone, part is for possible future expansion.  He said Sinclair wasn't overly specific on their intentions, just that they were willing to pay a very fair price for a vacant lot.  I'm still not sure how they got in touch with him.  Obviously they used county land records to locate him, but it's never been said who brokered the deal.  I figure if he wanted me to know he'd tell me.

Brandt has quite a few lots for sale as well.  Looks like someone packaged those to sell, though those must be a little further south than Sinclair wants/needs.

Drive along SW Blvd. just south of Goodwill.  The old wrecker company, an old trucking outfit, and some other cinder block buildings are all vacant and being demolished now.  All bought by Sinclair.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by AMP

In addition to the aromas, there are also real industrial dangers involved with these operations.

Here are a few that have occured over the past few years, there are hundreds of other incidents documented.

What chemicals are in use at the Lift Station near I-44 at the River to treat the sewage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65wrGV3AEiA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9JY3eT4cdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TworcINhDhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKBL1XHcB0

Sewage generally isn't treated in lift stations, FAIK.  I am aware some municipalities might add something for agglomeration or dispersion to help with handling solids problems in lift stations.  It's usually a polymer or a metal like alum.  Nothing toxic.  They are usually a collection point for sewage which is then pumped along to either a larger lift station or directly to a treatment plant.  Worst thing you will have in one is sulfur dioxide or other "swamp" gasses.

I wonder if John "J.R." Harris realized when he had his restaurant/bar on 11th named "The Lift Station" that that was also a component of sanitary sewer systems.

[Hometown]

Anyone catch today's page 1 story about the big expansion of the Sinclair Refinery?

The World has gone from saying Sinclair will "eliminate" stink in their recent editorial to Sinclair will "cut" emissions.

Of course, I'm hopeful that they will reduce emissions enough to make a difference but I have  to say that this refinery does not have a good track record.

I also think this may exacerbate problems with developing anywhere near the refineries.

Are there any experts out there than can weigh in on the claim that they will be able to expand the refinery and reduce harmful emissions at the same time?

[cannon_fodder]

I wont go so far as saying I'm an expert HT, but I did some academic work on the legal process of oil and gas.  

Most oil infrastructure (power plants too for that matter, and foundries in most instances) are grandfather into emissions standards.  It is simply too costly for Congress to require all industry to come up to code, so older facilities are grandfathered in with the idea that they will have to be replaced sooner or later.  Of course, this leads to drawn out lives of those facilities to avoid expensive emissions controls, which is why you see refining capacity and electrical production capacity remaining stagnant and constant band aids being put on aging facilities... but I digress.

Those older facilities can do certain maintenance and some upgrades and still garner their grandfather benefits.  However, it is VERY LIKELY that this expansion far exceeds those guidelines.  Thus, the facility will probably be forced to conform to all new EPA regulations put in place to date.  Not to mention some restrictions apply based on the mere volume of work done there (ie. I believe one cut off is 20K barrels, another at 60K, and then the large refinery category).  

Thus, there is likely that Sinclair will be forced to upgrade its emissions standards.  Perhaps some steps - like hiding the flares, is going above and beyond in an attempt to garner public support.  Lets see what happens, but it looks like the pollution aspect will actually benefit the Tulsa environment.

This is all open for correct, I am not an expert.  This is simply what I have seen in my research in the past on oil, gas and power production.

[Renaissance]

CF is correct about the grandfather clauses.  This expansion means that the entire refinery will be brought up to current EPA air standards.

Two things are certain: there will be less overall harmful pollutants released into Tulsa's air as a result of this expansion, and there will be less smell associated with the refinery because of specific scrubbers and filters required on the exhaust stacks.  It is also likely, but not certain, that the overall tonnage/year of particles released from the refinery's operations will decrease.  This depends on the amount of expansion vs. the amount of decrease.  But, any continued release will be much, much more air friendly.

What does this mean?  It means a net gain for proponents of river developement.  Although refining capacity will increase, pollution levels will decrease, providing an overall more enjoyable river experience (not that it was bad before).  RecycleMike can probably speak with more authority on the specific changes we can expect in air quality.  

[TheArtist]

Whats wrong with the flares? I like the flares, they look neat. Thats one of the cool things about the refineries. Reminds me of Bladerunner. [8D]

[cannon_fodder]

I like the flares too, but open flares like that are polluting because they do not assure the proper air/gas ratio for clean burning.  Think of what happens when you turn a Bunsen Burner on too high... large orange flame and black smoke.

[YoungTulsan]

Conan, any prospects on Sinclair buying out the homes in Garden City?  You said they were buying out some parcels of land, would that include homes or just the uninhabited areas?  Maybe this billion dollar investment could "buffer" that area of West Tulsa from the refinery (which is also reducing its profile and reducing emissions and smell supposedly) This could be a good thing for the West side.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Conan, any prospects on Sinclair buying out the homes in Garden City?  You said they were buying out some parcels of land, would that include homes or just the uninhabited areas?  Maybe this billion dollar investment could "buffer" that area of West Tulsa from the refinery (which is also reducing its profile and reducing emissions and smell supposedly) This could be a good thing for the West side.

YT,

I can't say for certain.  All I know is what I've seen purchased so far, and most of that appears to be north and east of the TSU rail line which runs parallel to the river then turns to the west at the south end of the refinery.  If I lost you there, Google Earth is a good friend. []

IOW- looks like they are buying land inside the rail spur- at least for now.  There are homes within that area, some abandoned, some still occupied.  I've talked to a couple of other land-owners in the area and they seem to think they are going to cash out to the refinery.  One of them is pretty hard to trust much of what comes out of his mouth as Gospel, the other is pretty shrewd and plays his cards close to his chest.

I'll keep my ear to the ground and see what else comes up.  Personally, I think well-maintained refinery equipment would look better than a lot of the residential squalor which is in GC now.