South County (tulsa)

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by swake

I would like to point out that the cities don't have anything to do with this, this is a group of developers.

Noted.  But, out there in the booming suburbs, I think the lines of separation between developers and government are blurry at best.  I think the motives and strategies are very similar.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

You make a good point. I am willing to bet those areas that are now being developed would still be being developed if that land was in Tulsa. People arent moving over there just because its Jenks or Bixby. Its developing that way because thats the direction Tulsa has been developing and Tulsa has simply run out of room in that direction and the development has spilled over.  Don't say its because of the schools, those schools would mostly be the same regardless of whether they were in Tulsa or not because of the demographics.

You don't want us to say it's because of the schools.  But hasn't development occurred in that direction primarily because of the schools, i.e., to avoid Tulsa Public Schools?

I dont think so. Those schools reflected the community they are in. The community would be no different, small town rural with an ever growing cadre of middle and upper middle class people and their kids. There was nothing wrong with the facilities of the Tulsa schools I went to, nothing wrong with the teachers per say. It was the type of students that made the school crappy. The teachers werent the ones slashing tires, beating up other students, smoking pot in the bathrooms, having no concern for learning, not having parents that didnt care or werent capable enough to make their kids grow up properly, etc. etc. it was the students. (and that was my grade school lol) As the demographics shift and become lousy in one area and better and wealthier in another, those upper middle class people are going to head to the better areas with the better demographics knowing their kids will more likely be with others like themselves.

Both of my sisters have moved, one out south and the other to BA. One sister told me that she liked mid-town and hoped to move back some day. She said she liked the school and the teachers, but honestly she didnt want her kids being around the kids that were in the school they were going to. They also wanted a larger house and the area of town they lived in had mostly small ones and the nice larger homes in mid-town are way outside their price range. So...out to the suburbs they go. The other reason they mentioned moving is that they wanted a neighborhood where they could feel that their kids were safe playing in the streets.

I drive through those South Tulsa neighborhoods all the time. Often you will see lots of kids out playing. And you will always see at least a few parents out as well keeping an eye on them. If you even dare drive a bit too fast they will in no uncertain terms let you know that you need to slow down. Trust me lol. Even if there arent any kids out those people really keep an eye out on who is going down the street and in and out of their neighborhoods. And they will watch you like a hawk. That is very different than what you will find in the typical mid town, east or west Tulsa, older neighborhood. Except for the very nicest ones in the wealthy parts.

Its just demographics. Even some of the older nieghborhoods in the suburbs like the ones I grew up in during the late 70s and early 80s are, well nasty now and the young people with families are moving to the new neighborhoods not those older ones.

More and more people are starting to move to Glenpool. Is it because people have suddenly determined that the schools there are better? Or is it just because the newer neighborhoods are being built ever more in that direction?

Demographics shift. People like being around others like themselves. Young people often want to live in new homes with their families.

If your a young couple you often start out in a cheap small older home in parts of Tulsa. But then when you get kids, are starting to make a bit more money, and want something larger.  Why pay the same amount or more for an older home in an iffy, "out of style", neighborhood with linoleum counter tops, crappy tile and carpet, etc. when you can go live in a shiny new neighborhood and get your 2story entry and granite counter tops, etc? Plus you know that there are other people like yourself and your kids in that neighborhood. And the schools reflect the same demographic shift.

[izmophonik]

It's nice to think we can grow to be one big city together but all that gets washed away every time the local news cuts to an interview from the mayor of Broken Arrow saying that the river developement would not help Broken Arrow and go on to whine about how many police, fire etc.. he could hire with "that kind of money".  that isn't seperatist?  OR what about the Jenks Mayor with a half grin saying "After all, the Dallas Cowboys aren't in Dallas" after he was questioned about a possible Drillers move.  Seperatist? Opportunist? At least I didn't mention Owasso in my original post because the Mayor actually said that without Tulsa, Owasso cannot thrive. With that comment he indicated that he understands the economics of the situation and therefore backs river development and is willing to join Tulsa idealogically in its growth whatever it may be.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

The schools would be the same

No way, people flee TPS

War and Peace

They absolutely go for the school district.  If Union were a part of TPS, those schools would not "reflect the area" nearly as much as you think they would, because, as a part of TPS as a whole, their higher average per capita income and higher retail/restraunt tax income per capita would be dispersed evenly throughout TPS.    You actually think TPS would spend 3x as much on a school in what is now Union, than it would on East Central or Mcclain?  Just to fit the neighborhood of course.

No.   That is why suburbanites flee to suburban school districts.  That way their increased per capita incomes (by excluding the poor inner city) and willingness to pass new bond issues (by having a higher percentage of people raising families who care about schools) result in schools with multiple times the money and resources of those in the inner city.

I am not a TPS hater, but I think most people have a bad perception of TPS and decide where to live based on school district.  It doesnt matter if the land is in the City of Tulsa, so long as it has an "exclusive" school district with a rich tax base.

[TheArtist]

I suppose we are just looking at things on different time scales for one thing. People werent always flocking to the suburbs. I remember when some Tulsa schools were new and in new neighborhoods and the young families were moving to those new neighborhoods. They were Tulsa schools, people werent moving to Jenks and Union then. Why werent they?

They were going to those places in Tulsa because that is were the new homes were and their cohorts were moving there as well.

There arent any new homes in those areas now. The neighborhoods dont have as many children. The demographics have changed in many ways. The young families arent moving to those areas but are moving to the next area of new neighborhoods.

Jenks and Union werent always desirable school districts.

Is Glenpool a desirable school district? Is it better than Jenks? But you just watch it will start to grow and attract more people because the development is going in that direction. Not because the schools are somehow superior.

Why is Bixby growing so much faster than Sand Springs? If its about the schools?

If it were mainly about schools, everyone would be flocking to live near Booker T Washington. There are indeed some very bad schools in Tulsa but there are some very good ones as well. Including some elementary and middle schools that consistently blow Jenks, Bixby and the other suburbs away in their rankings. If its about the funds and all the funds are distributed equally to all TPS, why the disparity? And why arent people flocking to move near those great schools?

Sure the schools play a big part, but you almost cant extract the change that comes from people wanting new homes. If large influx of people wanting new homes move into an area, those people are most likely young and have kids and those "upwardly mobile" middle to upper middle class people will have kids that do better. The schools will be newer and get newer things, etc. It happened before IN Tulsa. Those schools were better that were nearer the new homes. They were still all in Tulsa. Those schools, if there were any in that area, may not have been any better initally, but because new neighborhoods cropped up and those demographics moved in, the schools got better. Just watch over the next 10 years as the schools in Glenpool get better. As BA gets larger, older, and has more schools, watch as schools in the older parts of BA get worse and the schools in the newer areas get better.


http://sde.state.ok.us/test/API/api20061107.pdf

[waterboy]

good discussion. Let me add something as a former real estate agent who participated in the sales of homes to the burbs back in the seventies.

Real estate agents are like car salesmen, with the same integrity, yet they occupy the number one public relations position in the city. When asked direct questions that can't be asked on a forum or job interview such as related to race, crime, poverty, schools etc. they gleefully reply with the most common and racist of views. Those replies are viewed by the buyer as frank and insightful instead of greedy and self-serving.

They generally reply with what makes them the most commission and both those replies direct new home buyers to the burbs and new construction. Point in fact much of the new homes then were being built in old school districts that had terrible reputations for success. The builders and banks pay the freight for the real estate industry. Don't think for a moment that it is consumer driven anymore than GM listens.

When it comes to school districts they are pretty much like the number of br's, the size of the garage or inground vs above ground swimming pool. Conformity. Conformity yields re-sale value. If its above $300k you can't have too many br's or garage space. If its below $200k it better be 3br/2car, 4br are hard to move as well as swimming pools. And at any price the school district must be respected. TPS is not a deficit per se as it has a pecking order too (BTW, Edison, Eisenhower etc. at the top) and with open transfer not as restrictive as you think. The over $300k families aren't even considering public schools so it doesn't matter where they build which is one reason for the infill movement.

Just thought you would like some input from someone who came over from the dark side.

[Double A]

South County reminds me of Agrestic(replete with the accompanying hypocrisy) in the show Weeds. Little houses on the hilltop, little houses made of ticky tacky...

[TurismoDreamin]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by intellerWind River doesn't look destroyed.  The destruction argument has always fallen short. Land leveling has to be done no matter where you build.

There is land that has already been developed within the city limits where people could live.  

all of the DESIREABLE developed land in Tulsa dried up years ago.

That is probably the best comment to sum up why people are moving out into the suburbs instead of into Tulsa. People love to live in a fresh house and are proud to say that they are the first to live in it. And yes, the suburbs are quiet, peaceful, and relaxing. Suburb-minded individuals really do think that "Tulsa is minutes away from the suburbs" and not the other way around. The suburb-minded are not conservatives and only come to the city when they have to, when they want to spend their money, to attend events, and to work. All the city commotion is nonexistant. And I wouldn't say that they falsely advertised any of those suburbs. I frequent each one and that's as realistic of a depiction as you can get.

Makes one wonder that with all this development on the other side of the river, why so many Tulsan's are opposed to the convenience a new south Tulsa bridge would offer to its users. Such a bridge would ease and facilite commutes through the largest unbridged gap south of downtown (7+ mile gap).