Questions regarding the River Development

[Tony]

Well I am too old to care about being PC -- I calls em as I sees em  --- I am not on any team except FOR the river -

What is it you kids say "Bite Me?"[8D]

I don't like compromise that satisfies NO ONE --

I don't get down in the mud to wrestle a pig, the pig likes it and I just get muddy.

Most folks made up their minds about these proposals without really investigating the issues, financial, environmental, and political motivations -- kind like how we vote people in office now -- a new wind comes along and blows the sand and leaves with it. The rocks remain.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

Well I am too old to care about being PC -- I calls em as I sees em  --- I am not on any team except FOR the river -

What is it you kids say "Bite Me?"[8D]

I don't like compromise that satisfies NO ONE --

I don't get down in the mud to wrestle a pig, the pig likes it and I just get muddy.

Most folks made up their minds about these proposals without really investigating the issues, financial, environmental, and political motivations -- kind like how we vote people in office now -- a new wind comes along and blows the sand and leaves with it. The rocks remain.

I investigated this issue and many before it. This has been going for 40-odd years. I was one of the large chunk of the city's population who grew up not knowing there was a river in Tulsa. Every single analyst, expert, and person who stayed at Holiday Inn Express has said we need to develop the river yesterday.

No plan is going to satisfy everyone, but I'd rather my children grow up enjoying the river than campaigning 30yrs from now to develop it.

If you want to learn more or air some grievances, show up Tuesday Night at OSU-Tulsa for the TulsaNow River Development Tax forum. Both sides will be weighed equally.

[carltonplace]

The Facts:

The river plan provides for:

1. a new low water dam at SandSprings which is intended to pool water release by Keystone and then regulate the flow to Tulsa and down stream and mitigate the ON/OFF condition we see now when Keystone is generating for peak/off peak electricity usage/ This dam will have a pedestrian feature and a possible kiosk or restaurant.

2. Alterations to the Zink lake dam to minimize silt deposits and make it easier for fish to navigate.

3. A bike trail on top of the existing pedestrian bridge

4. A new pedestrian bridge at 41st St

5. A channel in the river (41st to 71st?)to capture water in one place during drought or low water conditions

6. A low water dam at Jenks south of the Creek Turnpike, also with a walking feature.

7. Land Acquisition: The MidContinent Cement plant west of the river at 21st is one of the parcels of interest. The land would be sold to developers after RFP approval and the money from the sale would be set aside for maintenance.

What we don't pay for: The large gifts from Keiser and QuickTrip and others totaling $117 million. Most of these are conditional on the tax proposal passing. QuickTrip will build their gathering area and interactive kids water feature regardless.

If I missed anything or mis-stated please chime in.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

Any plans they have to develope the river they need to make sure it passes the "Flood~Test".

Pretty simple, the plan addresses it something to the effect of '86 event plus one foot for shore side improvements (one foot above the flood of record, calculated at a 300 year or so event) that is subject to damage if flooded and no rise in the river level to pass the event per the City of Tulsa and Jenks strict flood  criteria.

[ttown_jeff]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Tony

Well I am too old to care about being PC -- I calls em as I sees em  --- I am not on any team except FOR the river -

What is it you kids say "Bite Me?"[8D]

I don't like compromise that satisfies NO ONE --

I don't get down in the mud to wrestle a pig, the pig likes it and I just get muddy.

Most folks made up their minds about these proposals without really investigating the issues, financial, environmental, and political motivations -- kind like how we vote people in office now -- a new wind comes along and blows the sand and leaves with it. The rocks remain.

I investigated this issue and many before it. This has been going for 40-odd years. I was one of the large chunk of the city's population who grew up not knowing there was a river in Tulsa. Every single analyst, expert, and person who stayed at Holiday Inn Express has said we need to develop the river yesterday.

No plan is going to satisfy everyone, but I'd rather my children grow up enjoying the river than campaigning 30yrs from now to develop it.

If you want to learn more or air some grievances, show up Tuesday Night at OSU-Tulsa for the TulsaNow River Development Tax forum. Both sides will be weighed equally.

The fact that it's been going on for 40 years is a good indication of its viability.

[tytan]

It seems to me that if the city of Tulsa doesn`t improve the quality of life issue in the area, Our roads and infrastructure will diminish anyway. Tulsans are going to have to pass a tax package to repairs streets regardless of the river tax. Just wait, the mayor is set to announce this pretty soon. If we don`t start getting taxes from people visiting our city, we are gonna face the same issues (raising our taxes) every spring and fall. I would like to believe that the overall goal is to draw people into our area that don`t usually visit Tulsa to spend their money here. Give them plenty to do while they`re here and they spend more money, They spend more money, our taxes should go down.Then we should have money to fix and maintain our roads. The benefits of voting YES are long term benfits. We vote no, I just think they re-introduce it another way.

[carltonplace]

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

[ttown_jeff]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

Why should we depend on tourists for our well being?  There are so many way to go. Tourism is one of them, but not the only one.

Why are we so bent on tourism and recreation to be our savior. The only people that are going to come here for recreation are people from Beggs and Leonard. No, people from Leonard stop in Bixby.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by ttown_jeff

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

Why should we depend on tourists for our well being?  There are so many way to go. Tourism is one of them, but not the only one.


Why are we so bent on tourism and recreation to be our savior. The only people that are going to come here for recreation are people from Beggs and Leonard. No, people from Leonard stop in Bixby.

Name a better one please.

[ttown_jeff]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

quote:Originally posted by ttown_jeff

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

Why should we depend on tourists for our well being?  There are so many way to go. Tourism is one of them, but not the only one.


Why are we so bent on tourism and recreation to be our savior. The only people that are going to come here for recreation are people from Beggs and Leonard. No, people from Leonard stop in Bixby.

Name a better one please.

Here are some

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

                                                Gee, let's see Tulsa built a low water dam, a pedestrian bridge, and gathering places(i.e. amphitheater, etc.) along the Arkansas River in Tulsa and it sure has become a magnet for tourists worldwide because of that, hasn't it?(sarcasm off) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. This is not a transformation, it is a mutation, like a metastasizing cancer.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

A question for you, then: How far out of your way would you drive to experience river development similar to what is proposed in this plan? 20 miles? 200? 2000?

I see this as potentially a nice county-wide amenity, but not a place people will plan vacations around. As many lakes as we already have in the region, I don't even think this will draw significant regional traffic. It will be a nice place to visit if you already happen to be in Tulsa.

(And what's that about QuikTrip building their proposed "gathering place" regardless of whether the tax passes? First I've heard of it.)

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Why cant we attract tourists to pay our taxes for us and improve our roads? I bet our river could do that.

A question for you, then: How far out of your way would you drive to experience river development similar to what is proposed in this plan? 20 miles? 200? 2000?

I see this as potentially a nice county-wide amenity, but not a place people will plan vacations around. As many lakes as we already have in the region, I don't even think this will draw significant regional traffic. It will be a nice place to visit if you already happen to be in Tulsa.

(And what's that about QuikTrip building their proposed "gathering place" regardless of whether the tax passes? First I've heard of it.)

They'll drive at least a hundred miles. Not for vacations, but for weekenders. I had many passengers who came from the OKC area to see how we were progressing on our river development just 3 years ago. There are large groups of Discover Oklahoma junkies who go everywhere that is featured on that travel show.

More importantly, I watched as people who were visiting Tulsa for business, weddings, re-unions etc. frantically looking for something to do away from their hotel rooms. They went downtown and to the river (with money in their pockets).

We're not building Disneyland but that doesn't mean no one outside of Tulsa region will come. In fact as I have often stated, probably 80% of my business was from outside the area. Tulsans prefer to watch TV or shop.[]

[sauerkraut]

I wonder what Gwen Freeman would think about this? She tells it like it is.[]

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by swake



You want to say we need to improve infrastructure. Fine. Where are we lacking?

Tulsa does not have a big backlog of needed improvements on any type of physical infrastructure. It doesn't exist.

I do not know anything, and I mean zippo about all this stuff but the Mayor and City have formed a panel to look at backlogged street work (T.World's words].