Reasons for my vote on the river tax

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

As to why Tulsa has encountered budget problems or delays, I would probably blame the previous mayor. Even with the escalated costs of material/labor, the arena was overdesigned for the given budget. Pelli said as much when the design was unveiled.

Well said.

The city administration allowed the designer to do whatever they wanted. LaFortune appointed his public relations coordinator to the oversight committee instead of a budget or engineering person.

I like the iconic design, but we should have had the oversight to keep it under budget.

That is the main reason I voted for new leadership.

                                            Kinda like appointing Sharon King Davis chair of the streets committee. Isn't it ironic, doncha think? Guess you'll be voting for a new Mayor in the next election by that standard. You make this too easy.  

[ttownclown]

I am voting yes.  

I think river proposition has a good chance to  pass for the following reason:

Whatever position or canidate Negative Nancy at KFAQ endorses ALWAYS loses.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by ttownclown

I am voting yes.  

I think river proposition has a good chance to  pass for the following reason:

Whatever position or canidate Negative Nancy at KFAQ endorses ALWAYS loses.

That is as solid a reason as any I have heard to support it!

[Conan71]

I've talked to quite a few people in the last week about the river plan.  There seems to be an undercurrent of people who aren't very well read on the topic and are voting yes because "something has got to be done about the river".

Comments from one person went like this:

He stated a "general distrust of local gov't, said Kaiser isn't any sort of philanthropist, he's just doing it to attach his name to something and profit (how's that for un-informed "isn't any sort of philanthropist"???), everyone's a bunch of crooks."

Guess how he's voting?  Yes.  "Time to do something with the river."

"What about voting no and letting more details become apparent in six to 12 months?"

"No, can't do that, they're going to take their money back, this is our only chance."

Therein lies one of my biggest problems with the way I've felt this has been presented: "Vote for it now, we might not offer this to you again."

Another comment I heard last night was about wanting commercial development on the west bank.  

That CAN happen without the tax package.  It all boils down to how much a developer wants to scalp the taxpayer for and how much the county wants to get it's fingers into the transaction.

[shadows]

It is all like sitting at the slot machine and saying it's hot and will pay off soon.  

The tax issues are passing with a great majority whereas the bureaucracies feel that the citizens are hot for more taxes.

Before this issue was put on the ballot it should have been in more detail in such a way the average voter understood.  

Now the Corps of Engineers, who must issue a permit, along with the DEQ and other environment bodies have come up with questions.   The indications from the Corps are that the lack of water releases in dry years will create stagnant lakes.  Environments point out that the oxygen content may not sustain wild life during these periods.  

These indicate that Kayaking and other recreation will fail for the lack of water.  There are many questions unanswered on the use of the water in the Keystone Lake including the income from electric generation and pledged recreation to the developments on it shores.

The Corps released water for the raft race one time a year but there is some thought how much they would be able to release at off generating times.   We are going to build a lake below the dam to make up for the storage of the assumed cubic feet of water needed but this balancing act depends on the turbine released which could be reduced to zero.  The operation of the inland canal depends also on the release of water.  

Much engineering is needed before we vote for a pig in a poke.

[HazMatCFO]

I am voting no for I don't trust the politicians leading this project.

[altruismsuffers]

Simple...NO MORE TAXES

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by altruismsuffers

Simple...NO MORE TAXES

I'm Voting NO on October 9th.

Our sales taxes rates are among the highest in the Region right now.

Another sales tax increase is simply:

OBSCENE.

[Wrinkle]

I'm definitely voting NO RIVER TAX

It just ain't right.
And I'm doing for the kids, their kids, and their grandkids, but, most of all, for Betty.

[Double A]

Return of chief may hurt tax vote


Charles Pouge, 39, a north Tulsa small-business owner, says the community is making a connection between the River Tax and the return of Police Chief Ron Palmer partly due to Mayor Kathy Taylor. "She's on the TV all the time. She's the one who brought Palmer back, and she's the one who wants everybody to vote 'Yes,'" Pouge said. BY DEVONA WALKER, THE OKLAHOMAN

TULSA — Reignited racial tensions in north Tulsa over the return of Police Chief Ron Palmer might just tip the scales in the River Tax debate, derailing plans for a temporary countywide sales tax to fund a project likened to Oklahoma City's Metropolitan Area Projects.

On the surface, there is no real correlation between Palmer's appointment and the roughly $300 million economic development initiative. But the project has already been hit by a growing list of detractors, and many say strong support inside the city limits is critical to its success.

In north Tulsa, red and white "No River Tax" signs are becoming as commonplace as potholes, and the two separate issues are increasingly being paired as proof that City Hall is just not listening.

"There had been problems with him before," said Pleas Thompson, chapter president of the Tulsa NAACP, about Palmer's previous reign as police chief — a period of about a decade beginning in 1992.

"We didn't see any reason to bring him back. We wanted a new chief, not a recycled one," Thompson said. "We felt betrayed."

City Councilor Roscoe Turner never supported the tax. Now, City Councilor Jack Henderson has joined the ranks of the opposition. He recently started speaking publicly against it.


'I'm the mayor'
Downtown Tulsa is the core of county commerce. The streets are humming with the sound of construction crews. From the 18,000-seat, $141 million BOK Center arena construction project to renovations at the Tulsa Convention Center to lofts to pending hotel projects, the landscape is changing rapidly. For many, this symbolizes progress.
"I'm the mayor," Taylor said about her decision to hire Palmer despite concerns over his past performance. "I certainly respectfully listen to the views of my council. But ultimately I will be held accountable for the hiring decisions I make."

As far as dissent in north Tulsa's black community over Palmer or the River Tax, she feels it is overblown.

"I think it's a disservice to generalize the north Tulsa community as having one voice," Taylor said. "We seem to allow those voices, who would like us to just have negative energy, to be the loudest heard."

She says negativity, bickering, name calling and finger pointing mired the previous four years at City Hall and that she will not participate in it during her time in office.

"I think it's very healthy to have a disagreement because that's how you have a dialogue to hear broad opinions," Taylor said. "But I think you have to do it respectfully, I think you have to do it with facts, and I think you have to do it with an eye toward progress."

While dissenting opinions focus on the past and the negatives of north Tulsa, she wanted to highlight its many assets: Booker T. Washington High School, one of the best high schools in the state, the best Western art museum in the nation, one of the fastest-growing job markets in the state and the fact that though it has chronic unemployment rates, the city has just connected it to a bus route.

"Do we have a lot progress to make? Absolutely, all throughout the city," Taylor said. "This city has been a little bit of asleep for quite a while."


The view from north Tulsa
Charles Pouge, 39, owns The Spot, a barber shop on East Apache Street. He points out that two weeks ago, north Tulsa lost its last grocery store, an Albertsons on Peoria Avenue. But there are still plenty of pawn shops, liquor stores, potholes, bordered up store fronts, crime and unemployment.
"The way it's set up now is all our dollars are going out south. If you look at the north side, there's nothing. If you want a pair of socks or a good pair of shoes, you have to go to 41st Street and Yale," Pouge said. "It would be nice to see some young professionals that want to come to town, but right now there are some other things that need to be taken care of."

He wonders if the vacant Albertsons will be filled before the city spends roughly $300 million in county tax dollars on the river.

Jeannetta Williams, 40, was born and raised in north Tulsa. She is familiar with its crime-ridden spots as well as the "community patriarchs," a group of older men who meet every morning at a nearby McDonalds because there are so few restaurants.

She says the community is equally up in arms over Palmer's return and the neglected condition of its streets. Potholes and strong-arm police tactics are both symptoms of neglect, she said.

"And even though they say that it's not, it seems like the same old thing where our tax dollars are being used to build up another community. And we're still struggling for a grocery store," Williams said. "The dollars are there for the support of (river development), but I don't think the votes are there to get it passed. There are just so many people upset right now."

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

It is all like sitting at the slot machine and saying it's hot and will pay off soon.  

The tax issues are passing with a great majority whereas the bureaucracies feel that the citizens are hot for more taxes.

Before this issue was put on the ballot it should have been in more detail in such a way the average voter understood.  

Now the Corps of Engineers, who must issue a permit, along with the DEQ and other environment bodies have come up with questions.   The indications from the Corps are that the lack of water releases in dry years will create stagnant lakes.  Environments point out that the oxygen content may not sustain wild life during these periods.  

These indicate that Kayaking and other recreation will fail for the lack of water.  There are many questions unanswered on the use of the water in the Keystone Lake including the income from electric generation and pledged recreation to the developments on it shores.

The Corps released water for the raft race one time a year but there is some thought how much they would be able to release at off generating times.   We are going to build a lake below the dam to make up for the storage of the assumed cubic feet of water needed but this balancing act depends on the turbine released which could be reduced to zero.  The operation of the inland canal depends also on the release of water.  

Much engineering is needed before we vote for a pig in a poke.

Actually, much engineering and study has been done and much more will be prior to the permitting phase.  

The Corps of Engineers is in favor of the Master Plan which this proposal closley follows.  In fact, they provided half of the study monies utilized to produce it.  The Master plan has been reviewed and presented all the way up the corps ladder to and including personally by Mr. John Paul Woodley, Jr. Assistant Secretary of the Army (for Civil Works) who traveled to Tulsa to see it.  Mr. Woodley very much liked the Master Plan, its goals and potential and implementation strategy and encouraged the group to get it funded.

The environmental concerns you state were raised and are addressed in the Master Plan.  But even more, last year was a severe test and if the River did not have water quality trouble and or fish kills (none reported) during the last summers extended low flow condition then why would it in the future under low flow conditions.    One thing about the dams proposed, if there is a water quality problem.  Simply lower the gates and then re-fill the lakes in a day or two or in the case of an extended drought we may have a dry river (again) until fresh flows resume or keep the gates up and force all flow over the aeration weirs to add dissolved oxygen to the flows heading downstream.

As for power generation and navigation flows, great!  That water (which is free) has to go through these projects to get downstream, which is exactly the flow we need for the intended operations.

[chesty]

I am voting no because:

1.)Vision 2025 stated that it would construct low water dams.
2.)The Corps of Engineers has not even begun the process of approving the plan.  Approval takes 2 years.
3.)Sales tax in Tulsa is high enough
4.)Tulsa's Crime rate is twice the normal average and we need to pay for more cops.
5.)The roads are terrible.  I have to plan my lane changes on the way to work based upon road conditions, not traffic conditions.  There are some huge pot holes and rough areas on hwy 169 and hwy 75.  Not to mention the city street.
6.)Is it fair to tax Collinsville for Tulsa's project?  What's in it for Sperry?  Turley?  Skiatook? Glenpool?

[Rico]

Oh how soon we forget....

There is nothing....nada.... that guarantees how this tax money will be spent.


exhibit 1.... the ballot.. even if you have seen it before... by the conversation I can tell it has been interpreted by memory rather than text.




OFFICIAL COUNTY BALLOT
SPECIAL ELECTION
OCTOBER 9, 2007
TULSA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA
0 0
TO VOTE: Complete the arrow(s)
pointing to your choice(s), like this
USE A #2 PENCIL (NO INK)
PROPOSITION
OFFICIAL COUNTY BALLOT
SPECIAL ELECTION
OCTOBER 9, 2007
TULSA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA
0 0
“SHALL THE COUNTY OF TULSA,
OKLAHOMA, BY ITS BOARD OF
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, LEVY
AND COLLECT A FOUR-TENTHS
OF ONE PERCENT (4/10%) SALES
TAX FOR THE PURPOSE OF
ARKANSAS RIVER CORRIDOR
DEVELOPMENT WITHIN TULSA
COUNTY, OKLAHOMA, AND/OR TO
BE APPLIED OR PLEDGED
TOWARD THE PAYMENT OF
PRINCIPAL AND INTEREST ON
ANY INDEBTEDNESS, INCLUDING
REFUNDING INDEBTEDNESS,
INCURRED BY OR ON BEHALF OF
TULSA COUNTY FOR SUCH PURPOSE,
SUCH SALES TAX TO COMMENCE
ON JANUARY 1, 2008, AND
CONTINUING THEREAFTER TO
DECEMBER 31, 2014?�
FOR THE PROPOSITION - YES
AGAINST THE PROPOSITION - NO


Many individuals stated at the beginning there were "no Guarantees as to how the monies would be spent..."
posted by waterboy...

The crust of the biscuit:

In addition, such public trust shall approve any deletion or addition of projects from those listed above and any major change in scope of any such project following a public hearing by such trust.




Keep in mind that Mister Kaiser saying that "you can have this much money as a gift if you just raise this much money" sounds more like the wranglings of a business negotiation rather than the comforting voice of a benevolent benefactor.

What would be gained by this for the people involved..? I can't say.. But this and the "Channels" have many of the same people involved..... And the smell of all of this is unmistakable...

Smells just like sewage.. and you can quote me on that.  

[carltonplace]

I'm a yes

1. There will be an economic impact, it will be substantial and it will attract the attention of potential businesses and developers. Many have claimed that they want to see the math behind the $2.8 to $3.5 billion impact forecasts, and that is fine, but not one of them have successfully refuted the predictions.

2. I'd like to see Tulsans spend their money in Tulsa and reverse the trend of people driving to the suburbs to the newest attractions there.

3. I want to see visitors in town spending their money close to the core.

4. I like it when there is water in the river. This might be simplistic but I dont think electrical production should dictate the water level.

5. The concrete plant and the City of Tulsa sand lot are eyesores in prime real estate that are keeping the area around them depressed. I want to see development here that will give the entire neighborhood a new purpose. Selfishly I also want to sit outside in a restaurant looking east and enjoying my river and my skyline.

6. I enjoy the river everyday. It brings a very diverse congregation of people with their pets and loved ones to enjoy the outdoors. The river and its parks contribute to a healthier lifestyle. They bring people together. I'd love to see more Tulsans enjoying this beautiful asset.

[chesty]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace





2. I'd like to see Tulsans spend their money in Tulsa and reverse the trend of people driving to the suburbs to the newest attractions there.

And I'd like to see Owassans spend their money in Owasso.  This plan has Owasso's money going to Tulsa with no benefit.  It is tantamount to highway robbery.