Vote Yes Commercials

[Sangria]

Don't they have the sweetest little kids saying vote yes?

Let me put this tax into perspective:

Right now, in the City of Tulsa (you know, the people who will b ennefit from the project) we pay 9.517% in taxes... this added tax will put us almost to 10 cents on the dollar. (9.917%)

Just because other places rob their citizens through taxes don't mean we have to do it too.

When is the last time your property taxes went down? Mine go up every year.

[Sangria]

Sorry, the tax is actually 8.517%

The 9.517% is the nuimber I got off my sales receipt from Best Buy off I-44 last night.

They over charged me for taxes and I will deal with them in a little while.

Even at that, 8.917 is not a whole lot better. Those half pennies add up fast.

[waterboy]

Why doesn't it bother you to say such things in the light of the often quoted link: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html. ??

Our overall tax burden is among the lowest in the country. And bringing in property taxes (which are also low) to rebut a project funded by sales tax is just like those sweet little kids they show on the ads. Irrelevant.

[TheArtist]

(1.)  OKlahomans have the some of lowest over all tax burden in the nation.

(2.)  A 1/4th cent tax will not even put us even close to the middle.

(3.)  Many would agree that the way we fund things needs to be changed so that we dont have to rely on a city sales tax in order to finance things.

 Where are these anti-river tax or anti tax "whatever it may be" people when there isnt something up for a vote? Why arent they as vocal about changing the way we tax or fund things here? Because...

If you use the excuse that our city sales tax is too high, you must be saying one of these things.

A.  Your against taxes period. (so dont say your against this plan because of xyz, because essentially your against every plan, of any sort, that will require taxes.)  And should state that honestly and not give the impression that if a different "better" came along you would support a tax for it.

B.   You believe the tax system should be changed. Therefor I believe you should at least be stepping up and saying that or doing someting about it. Dont just appear when something comes up for a vote then disappear to sit on your duff till the next time. That makes you appear deceptive and disingenuous.


Dont say. "NO RIVER TAX because our taxes are too high!"

Our taxes are not too high. The city sales taxes may be too high, but over all our taxes are not.


You should either state your going to be against every river tax no matter what it is because of the WAY we are taxed. And you believe that way should be changed. And I think in order to be genuine you should at least be vocal on that issue or show that you have been, or are, persuing that change.

Or you dont want any more taxes period. No matter what the river plan is.  

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

(1.)  OKlahomans have the some of lowest over all tax burden in the nation.

(2.)  A 1/4th cent tax will not even put us even close to the middle.

(3.)  Many would agree that the way we fund things needs to be changed so that we dont have to rely on a city sales tax in order to finance things.

 Where are these anti-river tax or anti tax "whatever it may be" people when there isnt something up for a vote? Why arent they as vocal about changing the way we tax or fund things here? Because...

If you use the excuse that our city sales tax is too high, you must be saying one of these things.

A.  Your against taxes period. (so dont say your against this plan because of xyz, because essentially your against every plan, of any sort, that will require taxes.)  And should state that honestly and not give the impression that if a different "better" came along you would support a tax for it.

B.   You believe the tax system should be changed. Therefor I believe you should at least be stepping up and saying that or doing someting about it. Dont just appear when something comes up for a vote then disappear to sit on your duff till the next time. That makes you appear deceptive and disingenuous.


Dont say. "NO RIVER TAX because our taxes are too high!"

Our taxes are not too high. The city sales taxes may be too high, but over all our taxes are not.


You should either state your going to be against every river tax no matter what it is because of the WAY we are taxed. And you believe that way should be changed. And I think in order to be genuine you should at least be vocal on that issue or show that you have been, or are, persuing that change.

Or you dont want any more taxes period. No matter what the river plan is.  

The small clique of Oligarch Families that control our local government just LOVE sales taxes, and just HATE property taxes.

Why:

Because the burden of sales taxes falls heaviest on the low and middle class wage and salary earners, and lightest on those in the high income brackets.

and,

Because the ruling Oligarch Families own so much real property, they just HATE paying the annual ad valorum taxes that constitute a sizeable portion of their cost-of-carry.  They even own the building where the Tax Vampires have their Nest:

2121 S. Columbia Avenue.

Owned by 21st Properties.

Which is owned by:  The Schusterman's??



[:O]

[waterboy]

I say we hunt the fuedal lord Oligarch's down, take their estates, shoot their accountants and pound this city's leaders back to an equal footing with us common folk. NO MORE PREMIUMS!!AA can get the torches and rally the peasants with Goebbel-speak, Wrinkle can find out where the cpa's slither to at night and Friendly can keep up the anti-everything PR machine.

Man, don't you guys ever get tired of that same old stuff? Try proposing something positive for a change. Find a cause worth fighting for instead of against.

[Breadburner]

I like how they use children to guilt us into voting yes....It's to bad but I'm stll voting no....If this money were for the Crow Creek corridor I would vote yes....Also if they can build Lamson a new ballfield...Why cant they give Robby some dough for Bell's.....I wish they would locate the ballfield and amusement park(Bells) on the river....And a 41st bridge......

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

(1.)  OKlahomans have the some of lowest over all tax burden in the nation.

(2.)  A 1/4th cent tax will not even put us even close to the middle.

(3.)  Many would agree that the way we fund things needs to be changed so that we dont have to rely on a city sales tax in order to finance things.

 Where are these anti-river tax or anti tax "whatever it may be" people when there isnt something up for a vote? Why arent they as vocal about changing the way we tax or fund things here? Because...

If you use the excuse that our city sales tax is too high, you must be saying one of these things.

A.  Your against taxes period. (so dont say your against this plan because of xyz, because essentially your against every plan, of any sort, that will require taxes.)  And should state that honestly and not give the impression that if a different "better" came along you would support a tax for it.

B.   You believe the tax system should be changed. Therefor I believe you should at least be stepping up and saying that or doing someting about it. Dont just appear when something comes up for a vote then disappear to sit on your duff till the next time. That makes you appear deceptive and disingenuous.


Dont say. "NO RIVER TAX because our taxes are too high!"

Our taxes are not too high. The city sales taxes may be too high, but over all our taxes are not.


You should either state your going to be against every river tax no matter what it is because of the WAY we are taxed. And you believe that way should be changed. And I think in order to be genuine you should at least be vocal on that issue or show that you have been, or are, persuing that change.

Or you dont want any more taxes period. No matter what the river plan is.  

The small clique of Oligarch Families that control our local government just LOVE sales taxes, and just HATE property taxes.

Why:

Because the burden of sales taxes falls heaviest on the low and middle class wage and salary earners, and lightest on those in the high income brackets.

and,

Because the ruling Oligarch Families own so much real property, they just HATE paying the annual ad valorum taxes that constitute a sizeable portion of their cost-of-carry.  They even own the building where the Tax Vampires have their Nest:

2121 S. Columbia Avenue.

Owned by 21st Properties.

Which is owned by:  The Schusterman's??



[:O]

Really?

As I recall they also backed the last GO bond issue, and those are paid with what again?

Property Taxes.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I say we hunt the fuedal lord Oligarch's down, take their estates, shoot their accountants and pound this city's leaders back to an equal footing with us common folk. NO MORE PREMIUMS!!AA can get the torches and rally the peasants with Goebbel-speak, Wrinkle can find out where the cpa's slither to at night and Friendly can keep up the anti-everything PR machine.

Man, don't you guys ever get tired of that same old stuff? Try proposing something positive for a change. Find a cause worth fighting for instead of against.

Sorry, but I simply cannot endorse a Terroristic Threat.  

MH2010 is watching, and knowing that I'd like to ground his free-loading on my tax dollars driving home MY police car, I really cannot endorse or participate in any proposed vigilante justice.

On the other hand, wouldn't it would be motivational to hang a few by their heels from the nearest light posts?

Nah.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

(1.)  OKlahomans have the some of lowest over all tax burden in the nation.

(2.)  A 1/4th cent tax will not even put us even close to the middle.

(3.)  Many would agree that the way we fund things needs to be changed so that we dont have to rely on a city sales tax in order to finance things.

 Where are these anti-river tax or anti tax "whatever it may be" people when there isnt something up for a vote? Why arent they as vocal about changing the way we tax or fund things here? Because...

If you use the excuse that our city sales tax is too high, you must be saying one of these things.

A.  Your against taxes period. (so dont say your against this plan because of xyz, because essentially your against every plan, of any sort, that will require taxes.)  And should state that honestly and not give the impression that if a different "better" came along you would support a tax for it.

B.   You believe the tax system should be changed. Therefor I believe you should at least be stepping up and saying that or doing someting about it. Dont just appear when something comes up for a vote then disappear to sit on your duff till the next time. That makes you appear deceptive and disingenuous.


Dont say. "NO RIVER TAX because our taxes are too high!"

Our taxes are not too high. The city sales taxes may be too high, but over all our taxes are not.


You should either state your going to be against every river tax no matter what it is because of the WAY we are taxed. And you believe that way should be changed. And I think in order to be genuine you should at least be vocal on that issue or show that you have been, or are, persuing that change.

Or you dont want any more taxes period. No matter what the river plan is.  

The small clique of Oligarch Families that control our local government just LOVE sales taxes, and just HATE property taxes.

Why:

Because the burden of sales taxes falls heaviest on the low and middle class wage and salary earners, and lightest on those in the high income brackets.

and,

Because the ruling Oligarch Families own so much real property, they just HATE paying the annual ad valorum taxes that constitute a sizeable portion of their cost-of-carry.  They even own the building where the Tax Vampires have their Nest:

2121 S. Columbia Avenue.

Owned by 21st Properties.

Which is owned by:  The Schusterman's??



[:O]

Really?

As I recall they also backed the last GO bond issue, and those are paid with what again?

Property Taxes.

According to Jim Hewgley, former city of Tulsa Street Commissioner, GO Bonds can only be used to build or substantially IMPROVE (I.E. Widen) city streets.  

Cannot be used for maintenance.

Overall, City of Tulsa has intentionally a very low level of city indebtedness.  

Because the Swells simply don't like paying Ad Valorum Taxes.

On the other hand, they do LOVE you paying for street and road improvements with the Itty Bitty Third Penny SALES tax, which has collected over $1.1 billion.  

But, with the last Third Penny renewal in 2006, dropping to a mere 28% pittance of the total Third Penny "capital" expenditures for street improvements, from the previous 2001 Renewal at 52% of expenditures, the city will HAVE to raise the street bond level to meet the road improvement needs.

[B)]

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Why doesn't it bother you to say such things in the light of the often quoted link: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html. ??

Our overall tax burden is among the lowest in the country. And bringing in property taxes (which are also low) to rebut a project funded by sales tax is just like those sweet little kids they show on the ads. Irrelevant.

                                                 It is not irrelevant considering that cities must rely on sales tax as their primary source of revenue, unlike the county, yet the county keeps choking off cities' ability to adequately fund the maintenance of our infrastructure by renewing and proposing new county sales taxes. How else do you propose the city come up with the huge amounts of money it will take annually just to keep our streets at D ratings?

[Tiny]

I hope everyone knows what this project will do to Oklahoma as a whole. These new dams will destroy one of the few striper spawning areas in the state. ODWC (Oklahoma dept of wildlife) depends on this area to harvest striper eggs for their striped bass/white bass hybrids that they stock in several Oklahoma lakes. This is just a minor point against the construction of the dams but if you think about it's effects on oklahoma ..it's a pretty major hit to Oklahoma tourism, non-resident fishing license and our own fishing opportunities. Once you take away the source of our hybrid production that shuts off our ability to trade hybrid fry for other species from other states like walleye and what not. Kurk Kuklinski (ODWC employee) stated that when they redesign the dams so that the striper can go through Zink dam and the other new dams the striper will spawn below keystone dam. Striper eggs have to flow freely in the water for three days in order to hatch and once they get to the slower moving water of Zink and the other dams they'll fall to the bottom and expire. It'll be as if the striper didn't even spawn because no eggs will survive the slower moving waters created by the low head dams. This will effect the fishing all the way to the Arkansas State line.

Keystone used to be well known and written about in lots of major magazines about it's great striper fishing ... when they built Kaw dam the striper haven't been able to spawn anywhere near the success rate they had in the 70's and the striper fishing in keystone is very poor now just because of Kaw dam. When these new dams are built and Zink redesigned it'll do basically the same thing to the whole arkansas basin and you won't hear of the great striper fishing in the lower illinois any longer because one of the few spawning areas will be gone.

Now consider the amount of tourism dollars we lost to the area when Keystone striper fishing took the hit from Kaw dam being constructed. It'll be basically the same results for the arkansas river. No striper means no hybrids which also means no walleye, trout or any other species of sport fish we currently acquire. The ODWC may be able to find an alternate source for their eggs but they may not be able to either. Who really knows for sure.

Now my take on the tax to get this funded is this. the rich developers and anyone that may benefit from these projects is certainly not any of the john Q Public that's going to be paying for these projects. Why should tulsa county citizens be forced to pay for these rich folk's projects. Seems to me like if I wanted a new building or shop set up in town then I should be able to figure out a way to get the working class folks to pay for something I want. I feel like if they want to build something then let them pay for it because it has nothing to do with me. My taxes are high enough now.

There's currently laws on the books in Oklahoma that prevents land owners from damming a creek that would effect their neighbors in any way. What tulsa county is planning on doing is going to effect the whole state and I don't see how they could be allowed to do it.

the endangered least terns is another issue ... how could tulsa county get away with destroying their nesting areas since they're an endangered species. They talk about building a new nesting area for them but how would they know they'd be able to use it ... maybe the extinction of the least terns will be a result. who cares though, we want our rich folks to get richer and make the poor and working class pay for their projects.

the tv ad on channel 8 almost had me wanting to vote yes on the river tax. it's got me worried now that it's going to pass because all the media is on board with this Yes vote thing and no one is telling about the negative impact these dams are going to have on Oklahoma. I hope there's a way to get the word out to the voters and point out the bad things that are going to come of this if it's passed.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Why doesn't it bother you to say such things in the light of the often quoted link: http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html. ??

Our overall tax burden is among the lowest in the country. And bringing in property taxes (which are also low) to rebut a project funded by sales tax is just like those sweet little kids they show on the ads. Irrelevant.

                                                 It is not irrelevant considering that cities must rely on sales tax as their primary source of revenue, unlike the county, yet the county keeps choking off cities' ability to adequately fund the maintenance of our infrastructure by renewing and proposing new county sales taxes. How else do you propose the city come up with the huge amounts of money it will take annually just to keep our streets at D ratings?

If property taxes are relevant then so are sweet little children who stand to be big users of river development.

Do you honestly think the county is keeping the city from maintaining roads? Would you support this plan if it were funded with ad valorem taxes? Your manifesto says no.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

I hope everyone knows what this project will do to Oklahoma as a whole. These new dams will destroy one of the few striper spawning areas in the state. ODWC (Oklahoma dept of wildlife) depends on this area to harvest striper eggs for their striped bass/white bass hybrids that they stock in several Oklahoma lakes. This is just a minor point against the construction of the dams but if you think about it's effects on oklahoma ..it's a pretty major hit to Oklahoma tourism, non-resident fishing license and our own fishing opportunities. Once you take away the source of our hybrid production that shuts off our ability to trade hybrid fry for other species from other states like walleye and what not. Kurk Kuklinski (ODWC employee) stated that when they redesign the dams so that the striper can go through Zink dam and the other new dams the striper will spawn below keystone dam. Striper eggs have to flow freely in the water for three days in order to hatch and once they get to the slower moving water of Zink and the other dams they'll fall to the bottom and expire. It'll be as if the striper didn't even spawn because no eggs will survive the slower moving waters created by the low head dams. This will effect the fishing all the way to the Arkansas State line.

Keystone used to be well known and written about in lots of major magazines about it's great striper fishing ... when they built Kaw dam the striper haven't been able to spawn anywhere near the success rate they had in the 70's and the striper fishing in keystone is very poor now just because of Kaw dam. When these new dams are built and Zink redesigned it'll do basically the same thing to the whole arkansas basin and you won't hear of the great striper fishing in the lower illinois any longer because one of the few spawning areas will be gone.

Now consider the amount of tourism dollars we lost to the area when Keystone striper fishing took the hit from Kaw dam being constructed. It'll be basically the same results for the arkansas river. No striper means no hybrids which also means no walleye, trout or any other species of sport fish we currently acquire. The ODWC may be able to find an alternate source for their eggs but they may not be able to either. Who really knows for sure.

I disagree that this project will hurt the striped bass any more than we have already screwed them up by building Zink Lake and Keystone Dam.

I think that this project will actually be very good for fish, birds and other river creatures.  

I spent quite a bit of time with the federal and state fish and wildlife folk during environmental meetings over the Channels. I spent hours listening to fish people talk about striped bass. The dams are situated to work with the river distance that works for the spawning of their eggs. The new dams will give them a chance to move throughout the river and the slight flow of the new design will help move their eggs, unlike what the low flow months can do.  

The new designs of the dams will actually add about two feet of depth to Zink Lake which will help all river creatures except for the Least Terns (don't you think they need a new name? I knew a guy named Les once, but they are named "Least").

The Terns will easily move to new habitats and the plans say they will create replacement habitat for them. The new step design of the dams will also tumble water slowly, adding oxygen to the water.

This vote will make it a cleaner river that is also better for all the fish and birds.

One can argue about county control, regressive nature of sales tax, overall tax burden or even the wrong priorities for today on this vote. But I have done a lot of research and asked a lot of questions about what happens to the river and I truly believe passing this vote will make it a better and cleaner river.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny


the tv ad on channel 8 almost had me wanting to vote yes on the river tax. it's got me worried now that it's going to pass because all the media is on board with this Yes vote thing and no one is telling about the negative impact these dams are going to have on Oklahoma. I hope there's a way to get the word out to the voters and point out the bad things that are going to come of this if it's passed.

Here's my take Tim. I'm surprised you wouldn't welcome this plan.  I'm a fisherman too. I've seen flat head cats about the size you're holding in your pic being pulled out below the Keystone Dam. I watched noodlers pull them out below Grand Lake too. I've also seen them carved up by the turbines at each of those dams.  Big dams are hard on fish.

From discussions with other sportsmen in the area it seems the Striper Hybrid was not native to the river but was introduced after the dam was built. Perhaps it was a mistake to do so. Each change to the river since the seventies has affected the population negatively. Some species have entirely disappeared since the lowater dam was built. However, the changes to the Zink dam should provide openings to allow the stripers to move upstream more easily. Perhaps there are other species that could be introduced that would do better under this kind of flow management. I think the stripers have a better chance under this plan than currently.

But you cannot overlook that the Kaw and Keystone dams protected the areas along the river from more flooding damage than tourist dollars would ever have equaled. Even in the spring there were never more than dozens of visiting fishermen in Tulsa. The economic impact was negligible. Even though Oklahoma has protections against farmers damming up water that flows across their land, it is to protect against what happened in California when land speculators dried up irrigation to orange groves so they could develop Los Angeles. If a river flowing across a farmer's land is flooding the nearby city, the state will allow it to be diverted or dammed. That's only fair isn't it?

The least tern is and will continue to be protected with this plan. I spent 5 years up close watching the rising/falling river levels decimate the terns each spring from Keystone to Jenks. There has been little if any growth of tern populations in that area as what didn't get washed away eagerly grew shrubs that hid their predators.  But statewide the tern population continues to grow. So any improvement here would be a success and I think you will find there is great improvement in their habitat with the "living river" segment from Zink dam to 61st street. It protects their sand bars from the daily releases and predators.

You think rich people are cramming their pleasure dreams down our throats? That their expensive visions will be carried on the backs of the working poor? I've been on both sides Tim. My experience is that the local rich and powerful do not, will not party on or around the Arkansas River on a regular basis. I had many who rode on my airboat on the Arkansas for the novelty of it but most of them prefer more exotic locations. Out of town rich? They'll visit and check it out on their way to their Grand Lake homes. Hell, the Lortons own their own island in the Pacific!! And this plan is cheap. We're talking less than a half cent which isn't going to jam up anyone.

No, this plan has evolved over 60 yrs time with input from your fellow sportsmen, wildlife associations, preservationists, runners, kayakers, and the Corps of Engineers. People just like you. It just so happens that there are wealthy folks involved too. They run along the river, watch the wildlife and they want to improve the river's usefulness and make it something the city can be proud of. They may profit from their donations eventually. But there are no inside deals by robber barons unless its hidden pretty well. If anyone can prove that they stand to make big money, then they should step up and tell us all how. NO ONE HAS. The money they pledge will simply be moved somewhere else if Tulsans don't want it.

There is a lot for you to like with this plan Tim. Check out the website and get the truth.