Fish & Wildlife Study Impact On River Plan

[Tony]

The scientist went first -- Vic tried to refute the fact(just like you do, its the party line[!]) that the Arkansas by definition is a Braided Prairie river both above and BELOW Keystone dam --

Vic would make a great potion seller in the old Wild West -- never met a man I didn't like less.

What no answer on INCOG's biological "expert" ?

Fortunately there WILL be a vote and I will abide by it -- this is just the FIRST round, still LOTS of time to refute YOUR plan.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

You are right, ODWC studies are NOT complete but ongoing -- it is NOT SPECULATIVE that these dams will alter fish populations -- I could cite about a couple of hundred studies on other river systems, we don't have to rehash that fact-- since this is such a POLITICALLY charged subject our Wildlife officials can't cite past studies in other rivers -- but I am glad this issue FORCED population studies for a baseline. Goggle Low Head Fish impacts read the reports by MANY fisheries experts all over the country.

What ODWC Study?

You mean the phase 3 environmental inventory that The Corps of Engineers is doing for Tulsa County on the 42 mile corridor.  

Yes, DWC is the sampling subcontractor on that.  Funny thing, if as an agency, not an individual biologist, ODWC was so concerned about the river here why have they never done this type of survey in the past even though development of the Corridor Master Plan has been ongoing for 4 years and Zink supposedly screwed up the fishery 25 years ago?

Oh and just so you know as administrator of the Corps contract it was my recommendation to perform the full 4 seasons sampling rather than the minimum which only samples for 2 seasons, but then again according to some I don't care about the health of the river.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

this stuff reminds me of the john anderson song "seminole wind"

ever since the days of old, men would search for wealth untold
they dig for silver and for gold
and leave the empty holes
way down south in the everglades
where the black water rolls and the saw grass sways
the eagles fly and the otters play
in the land of the seminole

chorus:
blow blow seminole wind ... blow like you're never gonna blow again
I'm callin to you like a long lost friend but I don't know who you are
blow blow from the okechobee all the way up from mickinopy
blow across the home of the seminole the aligator and the gar

progress came and took it's toll
and in the name of flood control
they made their plans and they drained the land
now the glades are goin dry.
last time I walked in the swamp
I sat upon a cypress stump
I listened close and I heard the ghost
of ociola cry

chorus again:

you people that want this construction are greedy and self centered and everyone else in the state can just lump it. you don't care about anything other than your own selfish goals ... which is about 17% of tulsa county according to the latest polls. you don't care what damage you do to oklahoma with these dams ... you just want your own personal playground and everyone else be damned. that was the thinking behind zink dam and that's the thinking now. no only does the majority of tulsa county not want these dams ... the whole of the state of oklahoma most likely won't want them but you select few think you have the right to mess it up for everyone else.

Nice ditty. But I'm tired of hearing you talk about greedy, selfish Tulsans. Put this in perspective for a moment.

Your poll information is coming from KRMG. They represent a tiny fraction of the community. A noisy, badly informed, passionate fraction. As I drove down 19th from Peoria to Lee School today, EVERY home with a sign in front was IN FAVOR of the river plan. I don't jump to the conclusion that its going to pass easily.

Then there's your selfish Tulsan attitude. OKC and Tulsa together represent some 3.5 million people? Give or take a half million. How much is left in the rest of the state? I'm guessing less than that. So even though the rural areas are larger, the urban areas have more people. If you want to put this to a state vote you probably lose badly.

Perhaps we should start analyzing the rest of the state's activities and weigh in on them. "Hey, Lawton, we don't want no stinkin' military base in our state making us a target for nukes!!" And frankly, these plans have been ongoing since WWII. Can they not read in the rural areas? Just now you feel besieged by the greedy city folk?!?

[Tony]

Not what I asked you -- I asked where is a Scientific Biologist sitting on INCOGS planning group? -- there isn't one because you don't want to hear about impacts --

There are other less productive ways to get you guys to hear -- but that will be left up to the courts.

If you were not a paid consultant and working for free with no strings attached I MIGHT believe you are a friend of the river -- you are just doing your due diligence for the folks punching your ticket -- and I might say a great job at that --

Get rid of the controlled gates, Lower the proposed dams to provide overflow and fish passage at 500 CFS and we might have some common ground.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

That wildlife study and protection is a bunch of bs. Let's build it first and let the wild life adapt to it. Wildlife is very adaptable. If we had to have all those enviromental & wildlife studies back in the 1950's we'd have no interstate system today. We'd have alot fewer roads & highways too. The same goes with Alaska oil drilling -we have $3.00 a gallon gasoline because we can't drill for Alaska oil in some bleak ugly remote landsacpe that is full of mosquotoes because the enviromental wackos don't want to. Next summer we most likely may have $4.00 a gallon gasoline as a result.[xx(]

And we would have been better off for it. Bring on $10 gallon gas and lets get on to better technologies for survival.

That would result in the USA becoming a poor 3rd world nation. If you want to live in a tin hut shack and use camp fires for cooking and heat that is the path your on. Maybe we could go back to using horses for transportation too.[B)]

Does it hurt when you jump to such conclusions and land hard on you butt?[]

$10 gallon gas would make Oklahomans, Texans and Lousianans fabulously rich. Probably put a president of our choosing in office. And there are better technologies, some that the oil companies are investing in that will make sure we don't end up a third world country (you know like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc.) Those wretched countries whose leaders pay for universal health care and build islands with our money.

Did you see the recent discovery that made water burn? Whoops! There goes Grand Lake.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

Not what I asked you -- I asked where is a Scientific Biologist sitting on INCOGS planning group? -- there isn't one because you don't want to hear about impacts --

There are other less productive ways to get you guys to hear -- but that will be left up to the courts.

If you were not a paid consultant and working for free with no strings attached I MIGHT believe you are a friend of the river -- you are just doing your due diligence for the folks punching your ticket -- and I might say a great job at that --

Get rid of the controlled gates, Lower the proposed dams to provide overflow and fish passage at 500 CFS and we might have some common ground.

All my efforts FOR the proposal are for free as I have previously stated on this site, it would have been easy and safe to sit back.  Spend some time with me and you might understand that, and yes that is an offer.  

Passages or flumes what ever you want to call them are planned and likely in a flow controllable manner because different activities may do better at different rates, permitting and design will decide this not me or INCOG.  

The top water elevations of both Zink and Sand springs will likely vary greatly as the tops are proposed to be adjusted with flash boards. SS is identified to cycle in elevation 3 feet or more pretty much each day giving a slower drop than on/off we get now and the same refresh time.  The areas below Zink will get recharged in the same fashion by the hydro releases and having the low flow channel in this area sure seems like it will give a better forage pool situation than we have today and give us a great opportunity to provide low level bars and islands protected form shore predators.

USF&W and ODWC representatives were at the table, however I prefer not to toss out individuals names here so PM me and I'll be glad to let you know just who the representatives were.  Sorry if they are not to your liking but those agencies chose who represented them.  In addition the Master Plan consultant had a specific eco-firm on their team. adaptive ecosystems

[Tony]

I know who the representatives at the table were - I visit with them occasionally. They are bound by serving ALL OKLAHOMANS. I also know only too well what permitting and design from USACE is going to allow just like the FIASCO at Zink or the  FORMER  Sand Springs low head dam -- that permitting/design will be based on flood control -- not fish passage nor the wildlife associated -- that begs I ask another question -- when it is determined that low head dams in the Arkansas contribute to severe damage during that next 300 year flood (we have had TWO in the last 30 years) who will be held liable? Where will monies come from to rebuild undermined trails, picnic structures, foundations? What is SO important to the "GROUP" you represent that you can't consider NON- Controlled ponds? Which would build in a series of elevation changes?

Zink damSHOULD be an embarrassment to the USACE engineer who designed then "implemented" that piece of junk. WHY would the current plan group expect those of us who were around pre- Zink to believe ANYTHING we are "promised"? If it wasn't for some back room dirty dealing by Mayor Inofhe back then Zink wouldn't exist -- SHOW me a design that can be set in stone, allows fish passage/migration even in lower flows,>500CFS,  then developers will have the Fishermen and river users on board. Installing fish passage and light recreational water craft passage would be a great first step at Zink-- BUILD that FIRST then lets see if it works -- if it works build all the dams you want -- SHOW ME instead of empty promises. I heard the promises twenty years ago as a younger man  -- sure left me distrustful of any more building IN the river.

I believe it is UNREALISTIC to imply contact water recreation above the proposed Sand Springs dam (complete with Marina) that is just a farce. I can envision all those sailboats sitting on their side in the mud. It is a GRAND proposal, go back to the drawing board and tweak it some more -  We have Keystone lake for water sports just a short drive up 412.

To me we are covering OLD ground and OLD wounds that haven't healed from the first process   --- Its no WONDER this has been going on for fourty years   --

Thanks for the offer -- I am on the Arkansas or in it on a weekly basis -- let me show you what a Sauger is -- you didn't know what one was last year.[8D]

[TheArtist]

Ok, you just lost aaall credibility with the flooding comment.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tony


I know who the representatives at the table were - I visit with them occasionally. They are bound by serving ALL OKLAHOMANS. I also know only too well what permitting and design from USACE is going to allow just like the FIASCO at Zink or the  FORMER  Sand Springs low head dam -- that permitting/design will be based on flood control -- not fish passage nor the wildlife associated -- that begs I ask another question -- when it is determined that low head dams in the Arkansas contribute to severe damage during that next 300 year flood (we have had TWO in the last 30 years) who will be held liable? Where will monies come from to rebuild undermined trails, picnic structures, foundations? What is SO important to the "GROUP" you represent that you can't consider NON- Controlled ponds? Which would build in a series of elevation changes?

Zink damSHOULD be an embarrassment to the USACE engineer who designed then "implemented" that piece of junk. WHY would the current plan group expect those of us who were around pre- Zink to believe ANYTHING we are "promised"? If it wasn't for some back room dirty dealing by Mayor Inofhe back then Zink wouldn't exist -- SHOW me a design that can be set in stone, allows fish passage/migration even in lower flows,>500CFS,  then developers will have the Fishermen and river users on board. Installing fish passage and light recreational water craft passage would be a great first step at Zink-- BUILD that FIRST then lets see if it works -- if it works build all the dams you want -- SHOW ME instead of empty promises. I heard the promises twenty years ago as a younger man  -- sure left me distrustful of any more building IN the river.

I believe it is UNREALISTIC to imply contact water recreation above the proposed Sand Springs dam (complete with Marina) that is just a farce. I can envision all those sailboats sitting on their side in the mud. It is a GRAND proposal, go back to the drawing board and tweak it some more -  We have Keystone lake for water sports just a short drive up 412.

To me we are covering OLD ground and OLD wounds that haven't healed from the first process   --- Its no WONDER this has been going on for fourty years   --

Thanks for the offer -- I am on the Arkansas or in it on a weekly basis -- let me show you what a Sauger is -- you didn't know what one was last year.[8D]

Where do I start, other than you are mad about the past and unwilling to look at what is proposed for the future.

If you know who was at the table why do you say there were no biologists on the planning team?  

The Corps did not design Zink, that is why they cannot pledge funds to fixing it even if we get federal funding for the river corridor.  Permitting under the Clean Water Act was in its infancy then, not now.  I have faith that the system will work, the Master Plan and the porposal includes both flood, recreation and wildlife features.

There has only been one 300 year event since Keystone was completed, 84 was not, 86 was at approximately 312,000cfs.

Non-controlled ponds as you state require overflow which is good except that they will silt up just like Zink and the now removed Sand springs re-regulatory did without the ability to pass silt from the flow line and provide no potential for water recreation.

Your opinion of water sports on the river is just that yours, I have sailed on the river many times in years past and it was quite challenging but fun and these days I float and wade it regularly.

I don't fish (other than going on a redfish trip a few years ago to South Louisiana, but if we could get them here I would start!) but I do know what a Sauger is, as I study myself informed on whatever I am working on.  I have never been asked a question about fish species, you have me confused with another.  

[Tiny]

I was fishing regularly down there right before the flood that really worked over riverside and I've always allowed that it was 1986 ... 1993 was just a little higher than this last summer's flood by 2 ft or lake levels ... there was a lot more water being displaced this summer than in 1993 as that one hit all at once it seems like and that one hit right at the perfect time of year to allow fish to come over zink ... fishing was great for years after that one but I'm sure it was the flood of 1986. september 29th to Oct 21 flood levels got up to 755 in 1986 with the inflow being about 350,000 cfps at one point. they had to let out a massive amount of water just to keep up with the inflow and they also held it back a little too long when the flooding started. I remember that but I looked it up to make sure.

[Tiny]

waterboy, you probably went through there right after that feller went through replacing all the vote no signs with vote yes signs hahaha.

let's put this into perspective ... you don't realize the scale in which these dams are likely going to mess up oklahoma's fishing ... it's not just a local thing ... it's state wide. here's some numbers and all these striper and hybrids came from eggs supplied from below zink dam ... you mess that up for ODWC and they're likely not going to be able to find another site like this one. but they may.

additional striper stocking

DATE
LAKE
NUMBER

07/26/07
Sooner
25,000

07/26/07
Keystone
20,000

07/27/07
Canton
1,000

07/27/07
Foss
1,000

Hybrid Striped Bass/White Bass

Altus-Lugert 64,128
Arcadia 18,000
Birch 12,600
Canton 70,418
C. Blackwell 17,487
Fort Cobb 41,000
Foss 44,060
Grand 103,908
Kaw 85,350 Common Cross (and 85,000 Reciprocals)
Konawa 13,950
OK River OKC 4,200
Oologah 49,256
Ponca City 8,500
Skiatook 106,424
Sooner 53,470
Tom Steed 64,000
Waurika 107,864

Total Hybrids Stocked = 864,615
Total Hybrids Requested = 756,840

These numbers are the fish that were stocked and not inclusive of the fish traded for like walleye and saugeye production and trade. This is just one year. I'm not even sure if that's the total for the year or not but if you disrupt those kind of numbers by putting in a few dams or relocating these fish making it harder to collect them or maybe impossible then you see why anglers get a little disgruntled. if it were left up to oklahoma as a whole then this thing would never get off the ground ... why would anyone want to pay for something that's not going to help them out any... maybe the folks living around the area might get improved property values and what not but how's that going to help the folks over in north tulsa or east tulsa ... there's a lot more folks in tulsa county that don't want this than the ones that do.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

We will have $5.00 a gallon gasoline as a RESULT of continuing dependence on Middle East oil - not whether or if we drill in Anwar (which I believe we should, just makes me more money) but your "attitude" shows again in your statement about that area as well.(not that gas prices have anything to do with the river) When gas hits $6 per gallon you had better hope the IC engine is a dinosaur (btw industry forcast three years from now)

There must be a balance struck between development and wild areas -- we can't keep bringing in pavement covering green areas, and polluting our water -- nor can we keep bearing a tax burden that just keeps spiraling up.

I don't think our economy can take $4.00 or $5.00 a gallon fuel. Workers could not afford  get to work. We'll slip into a depression, Prices will skyrocket as truck drivers have to pass on the costs of the high fuel prices, Few drivers can afford $5.00 a gallon fuel. The high oil prices is the result of oil spectulars driving up the price and collecting profits, oil passed the $80.00 a barrel mark for the first time in history.. This is the time of year that fuel prices drop. This is the time of year that gasoline is at it's lowest prices of the year and we'll still bumping $3.00 a gallon. Talk about street repair, if people can't drive we don't need roads. If the lowest fuel prices of the year is still $3.00 a gallon we have big problemos ahead. Wait till next years summer driving season. Europe's gasoline is around $6.00 a gallon but 75% of that is all taxes and they have ways to get around without driving.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

quote:Originally posted by Tony

We will have $5.00 a gallon gasoline as a RESULT of continuing dependence on Middle East oil - not whether or if we drill in Anwar (which I believe we should, just makes me more money) but your "attitude" shows again in your statement about that area as well.(not that gas prices have anything to do with the river) When gas hits $6 per gallon you had better hope the IC engine is a dinosaur (btw industry forcast three years from now)

There must be a balance struck between development and wild areas -- we can't keep bringing in pavement covering green areas, and polluting our water -- nor can we keep bearing a tax burden that just keeps spiraling up.

I don't think our economy can take $4.00 or $5.00 a gallon fuel. Workers could not afford  get to work. We'll slip into a depression, Prices will skyrocket as truck drivers have to pass on the costs of the high fuel prices, Few drivers can afford $5.00 a gallon fuel. The high oil prices is the result of oil spectulars driving up the price and collecting profits, oil passed the $80.00 a barrel mark for the first time in history.. This is the time of year that fuel prices drop. This is the time of year that gasoline is at it's lowest prices of the year and we'll still bumping $3.00 a gallon. Talk about street repair, if people can't drive we don't need roads. If the lowest fuel prices of the year is still $3.00 a gallon we have big problemos ahead. Wait till next years summer driving season. Europe's gasoline is around $6.00 a gallon but 75% of that is all taxes and they have ways to get around without driving.

Better to start a new topic for your remarks. They pretty much indicate why many people are quite scared right now. Occasionally good to think in worst case scenarios.

[cannon_fodder]

I thought you said Zink dam was horrible for fish?  All of a sudden it is solely responsible for all the fish in Oklahoma?  If one dam provides 850,000 fish for stocking, than with 3 more we should be able to provide 3.4 million... awesome!

If fish stocking is your major concern then don't worry at all.  There are plenty of sources to get fish eggs from, hell - you can order them on the internet if you want to.  So that's a total and complete non issue... even if I believed your hyperbole that Fish and Wildlife will run out of fish eggs in Oklahoma.

Whats more, the species you are mentioning are NON-NATIVE OKLAHOMA SPECIES.  The Bass they stock are Florida F1 Large Mouth Bass... our "Native Largemouth" are actually classified as Sunfish, are much smaller, and less aggressive.    The hybrid is also an introduced species.  If you are worried about the natural state of the river... surely the continued stocking of these non-native species is a serious problem.

This is a small portion of river.  It is also the most industrial waterway in Oklahoma for sure.  Other than the massive hydroelectric dam and Zink dam, there are a couple refineries, a few sand dredging operations, a couple power plants, a sewage plant and a community of a 800,000.  If you are looking for a pristine waterway to rescue, you're 100 years too late.

Finally, F&W themselves say they do not know.
http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/striperresearch/study.php

A VERY interesting study on Striped Bass in Zink lake and below.  It tracks them by radio and lists their location for months.  Please note that all these 10+ pound stripers were caught below a man made dam (keystone) and near another man made dam (Zink).  I do not understand why you think other dams would be bad for the population when these fish thrive between them?

I want a healthy sporting atmosphere as much as anyone... but I see no proof that this will destroy existing fish stocks or hinder future ones.  Fishing in Oklahoma as we know it depends on dams and man made lakes.

[Tony]

CF you know NOTHING about fishing -- FROM 33 years of EXPERIENCE on or in the Arkansas river, and on the water 270 days of the year in OKLAHOMA -- I believe I AM QUALIFIED to speak -- The Stilling basin below Keystone USED to have a spawning run of Striped Bass before Zink was constructed -- Zink blocked that run and moved it to a less suitable area below it. Zink dam operation was EVEN worse for fish when the county did open the gates to let fish through  -- this due to the thousands of fish left on a shallow concrete pan once the gates closed, this left stranded dying fish. This native only BS gets my hot button -- FLORIDA largemouth introductions are NOT native to the state at all -- so by your reasoning they are of no value - B.S.-

That there still is a very fishable population of White Bass and Striped Bass has not one thing to do with ZINK dam -- the fish that manage to survive in the river are the FEW which can get over Zink during 65,000CFS flows and the ones which come thru the Keystone dam --

Striped Bass are native to the Gulf Coast/ Mississippi drainage to which the Arkansas connected BEFORE there were locks and navigation -- Striped Bass navigated hundreds of miles upstream -- the Kerr Navigation system killed off the Arkansas run -- Striped Bass were reintroduced above Keystone lake in the sixties and early seventies and have since REPOPULATED the Arkansas down to the Mississippi and are found below every lock and dam on the Arkansas -- so get off your native CRAP. White Bass which are OKLAHOMA's recognized NATIVE sportfish were also decimated by the NAVIGATION system -- but are more prolific than Striped Bass.

Zink dam is a MAJOR factor in the decline of sport fish in the Arkansas below and above it-- which is WHY fishermen do not like this plan  

I challenged vision 2025 to correct Zink first , but all I got was vauge references to they didn't own it etc -- thats BULL , I talked to the ENGINEER who planned Zink dam and who was (or still is) an engineer for USACE.

I see the same kind of CRAP from the current WIZARDS in this plan as the ZINK plan -- I for one hope this fails BIG TIME.

The rocky bottom was there before Zink, the fish were there BEFORE Zink and before you were Potty trained --

GOOD IDEA -- Bad Plan --

MAybe we will do the RIGHT thing and dynamite Zink.

Most European Americans would not be here were it not for Striped Bass on the East Coast -- the PILGRIMS who landed at Plymouth Rock would have STARVED were it not for Striped Bass in ABUNDANCE -- of all the Fish In US waters Striped Bass have been the MOST important to our ancestors and history  -- SO WHAT SHOULD THE NATIONAL FISH BE

Read some history BEFORE you get on a non-native kick.