Fish & Wildlife Study Impact On River Plan

[Tony]

Here is verbatium what OKLAHOMA WILDLIFE SAYS ABOUT THE PROPOSED DAMS

" in THE report prepared for the corps' environmental impact study.

The low-water dams would destroy about 10 miles of "prairie river habitat," said Brent Gordon, a fisheries biologist who prepared the report for the state agency.

And the water level will fluctuate too much to replace the river habitat with a sustainable lake habitat, Gordon said.

"What you end up with is neither," he said. "People think that if you want fish, all you need is water. But that's not true. It's not even close to true."

[cannon_fodder]

the non-native kick was in response to people defending the "natural state" of the river.  

However, I very glad we have clarified the fact that you are qualified to speak above all others.  If the fact that I actually cited to a source is not an indication that I look things up instead of making them up then you are not paying attention.  I shall bow to your fish knowledge, oh great one, and not bother discussing this with you further.

and still vote yes on the river.

[sauerkraut]

The river is all Tulsa has so the city needs to make the most of it. It's like the focus point of the city. Did ya see the picture of how the new RiverSide jogging/bike trail will look? Todays Tulsa news has a picture of it and it's really looks great, it'll be one trail for runners only and another trail for bike riders only. They will re-build it in sections. As for fishing in the river I don't think I'd like eat any Arkansas River fish. I also would not want to swim in it. The river should be looks only.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

I challenged vision 2025 to correct Zink first , but all I got was vauge references to they didn't own it etc -- thats BULL , I talked to the ENGINEER who planned Zink dam and who was (or still is) an engineer for USACE.

I see the same kind of CRAP from the current WIZARDS in this plan as the ZINK plan -- I for one hope this fails BIG TIME.

MAybe we will do the RIGHT thing and dynamite Zink.

Tony,

Ok now it is my turn to ask for names, because I know the engineer who led the Zink Lake design pretty well and back then and through as recent as yesterday he was not at the Corps.  

Have you actually reviewed the final version of the Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan and what it specifically states about dam designs and eco system restoration or are you just blasting away at the past.

My opinion and I'm sorry if it offends, but you'll never ever get me to accept that river is just for fish.  It has been and more importantly can be an even more successful contributor to our community than just a gravel bar for fish.

Once again, if you really want to see the plan contact me.

[Tony]

I don't take offense -- nor name names that PRIVATE discussions have been held with -- at the Jenks INCOG meeting HE is the one who said he was with the corps - so I could be mistaken.

You and I will just have to disagree and let the votes count. After all this fails and it is later reintroduced I would hope you guys will CONSIDER what Fish and Wildlife and ODWC told you  - it just a contest of ideas at this point -- the lawyers will get rich in the end.

Just because a BRAIDED PRAIRIE river runs thru downtown Tulsa is no reason to screw it up.

[RecycleMichael]

I know you are sincere in your beliefs, Tony. I know that a fisherman would never lie.

I completely disagree with you on what these dams and river improvements will do for the river. I talk to some of the same experts you do and go to some of the same meetings you do.

The reason I am for this vote is that I truly think it will make it a cleaner and more abundant river than we have now. I think the public will be closer to the actual water and and that closer relationship will be make Tulsans interested in keeping it clean.

I hope a stronger connection with the river combined with a new beautification effort spurs a real sense of protecting nature in our community.  

I think the fish in the river will have more oxygen based on the new dam designs, I think that the new designs that allow easier passage of eggs and fish are going to work just fine and will be an improvement from what we have today. The low flow of 2006 would have been better for the fish if the compounds of water created by a yes vote would have been in place.

This vote will put water in the river and keep water moving better than what we have now.

I can argue about priorities, overall tax burden, county oversight and many other parts of this vote. But I am voting yes because I truly belief it will make a better river. I am a fisherman too and I don't want to let this one get away.

[Tiny]

vision2025, how wide are these gates going to be and how far down are they going to lower them during the spawn? are they going to be wide enough to allow the river to flow sort of naturally during this time frame from April to about the third week of May? Like let the river flow to it's natural levels during that time or are they just going to open them for a week or so? If the gates are going to be just 8 to 10 ft wide that they're opening then that's pretty much useless it seems as the eggs or anything else probably won't flow through if there's a lot of restriction there before the dam sites. What would be cool is if they had the dams set up so that at least half the dam would open up on all of them so that the river would flow at it's natural levels during that time period.

I also never said that zink dam is great for anything but it's currently a blockade for the striper every year and they can't go any further than that and the shallow water below zink dam allows the ODWC easy access to the striper that are trying to get up river to spawn. They don't ever make it past zink dam and I don't think they can go past zink unless the flow is more like 85,000 cfps. at 65,000 cfps there's still about a 2 ft waterfall dropping from zink dam. They may be able to negotiate it though but I've only seen massive water flow in mid april just a few times in the last 20 years down there.

I'm sure that they'll eventually get the dams put up and I hope that one below zink stinks as bad as I think it's going to. be nice to see all that green sewage pooled up there with a nice green froth on top with a few dead fish mixed in with it for color and added aroma. might make for good business for all those fast food joints right there on 71st street and whet everyone's appetite hahaha.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

vision2025, how wide are these gates going to be and how far down are they going to lower them during the spawn? are they going to be wide enough to allow the river to flow sort of naturally during this time frame from April to about the third week of May? Like let the river flow to it's natural levels during that time or are they just going to open them for a week or so? If the gates are going to be just 8 to 10 ft wide that they're opening then that's pretty much useless it seems as the eggs or anything else probably won't flow through if there's a lot of restriction there before the dam sites. What would be cool is if they had the dams set up so that at least half the dam would open up on all of them so that the river would flow at it's natural levels during that time period.

I also never said that zink dam is great for anything but it's currently a blockade for the striper every year and they can't go any further than that and the shallow water below zink dam allows the ODWC easy access to the striper that are trying to get up river to spawn. They don't ever make it past zink dam and I don't think they can go past zink unless the flow is more like 85,000 cfps. at 65,000 cfps there's still about a 2 ft waterfall dropping from zink dam. They may be able to negotiate it though but I've only seen massive water flow in mid april just a few times in the last 20 years down there.

I'm sure that they'll eventually get the dams put up and I hope that one below zink stinks as bad as I think it's going to. be nice to see all that green sewage pooled up there with a nice green froth on top with a few dead fish mixed in with it for color and added aroma. might make for good business for all those fast food joints right there on 71st street and whet everyone's appetite hahaha.

The master plan makes various recommendations concerning the need for greatly increased gate volumes than what Zink presently has.  What is proposed (at Sand Springs and Jenks) is 3 gate sections per dam, each section containing 2-100' bascule gates (same lay flat type as is in Zink) for a total of 600' of gate per dam with cascade or other energy dissipating/aerating  weirs for the remainder of the structure.  The Study also recommends "a study to determine the frequency and duration the gates should be fully opened for fish migration" which the current sampling is a critical first step in and analysis to determine that the flume velocities are appropriate for striper and paddle fish swim speeds.

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael


I can argue about priorities, overall tax burden, county oversight and many other parts of this vote. But I am voting yes because I truly belief it will make a better river. I am a fisherman too and I don't want to let this one get away.

I'm with you RM, I belief it too.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

vision2025, how wide are these gates going to be and how far down are they going to lower them during the spawn? are they going to be wide enough to allow the river to flow sort of naturally during this time frame from April to about the third week of May? Like let the river flow to it's natural levels during that time or are they just going to open them for a week or so? If the gates are going to be just 8 to 10 ft wide that they're opening then that's pretty much useless it seems as the eggs or anything else probably won't flow through if there's a lot of restriction there before the dam sites. What would be cool is if they had the dams set up so that at least half the dam would open up on all of them so that the river would flow at it's natural levels during that time period.

I also never said that zink dam is great for anything but it's currently a blockade for the striper every year and they can't go any further than that and the shallow water below zink dam allows the ODWC easy access to the striper that are trying to get up river to spawn. They don't ever make it past zink dam and I don't think they can go past zink unless the flow is more like 85,000 cfps. at 65,000 cfps there's still about a 2 ft waterfall dropping from zink dam. They may be able to negotiate it though but I've only seen massive water flow in mid april just a few times in the last 20 years down there.

I'm sure that they'll eventually get the dams put up and I hope that one below zink stinks as bad as I think it's going to. be nice to see all that green sewage pooled up there with a nice green froth on top with a few dead fish mixed in with it for color and added aroma. might make for good business for all those fast food joints right there on 71st street and whet everyone's appetite hahaha.

The master plan makes various recommendations concerning the need for greatly increased gate volumes than what Zink presently has.  What is proposed (at Sand Springs and Jenks) is 3 gate sections per dam, each section containing 2-100' bascule gates (same lay flat type as is in Zink) for a total of 600' of gate per dam with cascade or other energy dissipating/aerating  weirs for the remainder of the structure.  The Study also recommends "a study to determine the frequency and duration the gates should be fully opened for fish migration" which the current sampling is a critical first step in and analysis to determine that the flume velocities are appropriate for striper and paddle fish swim speeds.

That's great.  Someone call me when all the studies are completed and they are ready to tell us exactly what the enviro impact is, and what recommendations will be built.  I will gladly beat the drum as loud for development and a tax supporting it as I've been beating it in opposition.

[Tony]

The BIG QUESTION of the day -- whats the rush to vote? I want to see these designs finalized, then I want to see whether or if 404 requirements will be met, IF the dams then pass flood requirements -- what the final estimated REAL cost of each structure will be -- what the recomendations of the varoius wildlife agencies will be, IF USACE permits the plans, etc, etc, -- I fully understand this OCT-9 vote will be a gauging instrument for you proponents -- if the vote fails que sera sera, you just approach this from another Tack. INCOG has FAILED to get all stakeholders input --  just a close cadre of supporters are allowed  - no reasonable opposition is heard  -- so there you have it in a nutshell.

Kaiser can put in funds any time they please, three tax seasons from now perhaps all studies will be in -- TRUE public input will be allowed , then we can see some real DEMOCRATIC process in place for this proposal.

The Cart is Pulling this horse.

[Tiny]

well that sounds kinda alright, there are other species to consider and not just striper and paddlefish ... white bass and blue catfish are also another migration species during the spawn. the bluecat leave the lake the third week of may to go up river to spawn so that's quite a bit later than striper and paddlefish ... will those species be taken into account as well? If they're all inclusive the gates could be down as long as nearly 3 months ... will the tulsa citizens be receptive to these kinda long term gate openings ... from about the first of april to about mid june? the bluecat leave the lake around may 21st to head up river and start spawning around mid june. the gates could be raised about june 7th with no ill effects to the bluecat as they'll be able to make their way back down river without the gates open but they're not jumpers ... they can't get over dams coming up river. These are just questions that are rattling around in my head about this stuff. also would tulsa citizens be able to put pressure on the folks that control the gates so they can have their lakes dispite the needs of the wildlife? seems like that's what happened with zink dam ... someone decided they didn't want to see zink lake low or something and the gate was supposed to be opened to allow fish passage but I can only remember it being opened one time. I guess it's silted in now so it can't be opened but what's to prevent these new dams from having the same problem... they had no problem keeping zink gate closed all those years and I kinda think this will be the venue for the new dams ... promise folks things just to get them built and then don't follow through when it comes time to open them. Seems like that's been the norm with zink, anyhow. Will there be a seperate oversight deal on gate control ... will the gates be controled by the people that know the fish (ODWC) or will they be controlled byt he same people that were supposed to open zink gate? will it be manditory gate openings during this time of year ... what will be the penalties to the folks that decide to not open them so they can have their lakes during the time the fish are needing to get through. if it's the same as zink then nothing will happen and the ones that lose are the sportsmen of the state with no reprocussion or anything happen to the individuals that decided to keep the dams closed. I kinda think that's the way things are going to happen as we've already seen it happen.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Tiny

well that sounds kinda alright, there are other species to consider and not just striper and paddlefish ... white bass and blue catfish are also another migration species during the spawn. the bluecat leave the lake the third week of may to go up river to spawn so that's quite a bit later than striper and paddlefish ... will those species be taken into account as well? If they're all inclusive the gates could be down as long as nearly 3 months ... will the tulsa citizens be receptive to these kinda long term gate openings ... from about the first of april to about mid june? the bluecat leave the lake around may 21st to head up river and start spawning around mid june. the gates could be raised about june 7th with no ill effects to the bluecat as they'll be able to make their way back down river without the gates open but they're not jumpers ... they can't get over dams coming up river. These are just questions that are rattling around in my head about this stuff. also would tulsa citizens be able to put pressure on the folks that control the gates so they can have their lakes dispite the needs of the wildlife? seems like that's what happened with zink dam ... someone decided they didn't want to see zink lake low or something and the gate was supposed to be opened to allow fish passage but I can only remember it being opened one time. I guess it's silted in now so it can't be opened but what's to prevent these new dams from having the same problem... they had no problem keeping zink gate closed all those years and I kinda think this will be the venue for the new dams ... promise folks things just to get them built and then don't follow through when it comes time to open them. Seems like that's been the norm with zink, anyhow. Will there be a seperate oversight deal on gate control ... will the gates be controled by the people that know the fish (ODWC) or will they be controlled byt he same people that were supposed to open zink gate? will it be manditory gate openings during this time of year ... what will be the penalties to the folks that decide to not open them so they can have their lakes during the time the fish are needing to get through. if it's the same as zink then nothing will happen and the ones that lose are the sportsmen of the state with no reprocussion or anything happen to the individuals that decided to keep the dams closed. I kinda think that's the way things are going to happen as we've already seen it happen.

What organization would operate the gates has not yet been determined.  However who ever is ultimately responsible they will be required to operate the facilities in strict accordance with the permit.

[bokworker]

RM... "I know a fisherman would never lie"..... Now THAT is funny.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Tony

The BIG QUESTION of the day -- whats the rush to vote?

The supposition of the proponents is that they have $113M in pledged donations and if they wait around, some or all of it will go away.