TulsaNow River Forum - Send Us Your Questions!

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Its been said that river development should be done by the private sector. Do you think that private developers will build dams in our river? And if so, Can you give us some examples where this has been done previously?

The answer is yes. The existing Zink Lake Dam was built by the private sector.

It was paid for by the private sector in exchange for land owned by the city, so the city still paid for it.

If you wish to get into technicalities, the dam was donated to the City of Tulsa by the private developer who built it. The City reciprocated with three prime tracts of real estate as a sign of their appreciation.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The above incident is true. I updated with information regarding the potential of them not being the same Busby and asked for clarification which you have provided. Thanks. I have nothing for which to apologize.[/quote]

You think it is ok to write completely false information about someone, incorrectly linking them to a public scandal, just because you notice that they have the same last name?

You probably think everybody named Simpson killed their ex-wife.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The above incident is true. I updated with information regarding the potential of them not being the same Busby and asked for clarification which you have provided. Thanks. I have nothing for which to apologize.

You think it is ok to write completely false information about someone, incorrectly linking them to a public scandal, just because you notice that they have the same last name?

You probably think everybody named Simpson killed their ex-wife.
[/quote]


I didn't write false information about anyone.

If someone said a lady named Taylor murdered her husband, who would you first think of?

I asked a question.

A public figure in Tulsa named Busby rang a bell. How many more Busby's do we have in public life living in Tulsa?

I clearified, you answered. End of case.

[cannon_fodder]

1) How solid are the cost estimates?  I voted in favor of vision 2025 but some of the projects I favored have been cut or diminished for additional funding for the arena.  Are their built in margins or other safeties to assure this will not happen again?

2) Where did the 9,000 new jobs number come from?  Assuming no new industrial buildings are going in along the river, it would take 90 large restaurants or mid sized retailers to make 9,000 jobs.

3) Recently questions have been raised about the environmental impact study, what steps will this project take to protect the fish stocks and other wildlife in, on, and along the river?

4) Is there any indication that the private donors would contribute to a more limited proposal should the grander funding scheme fail?

5) If this funding scheme fails, is the city willing to try funding alternatives?

[carltonplace]

How about this one:

'During the last 4 to fix campaign many people opposed to that tax were asking the county to "Do the River First". Now that there is a plan for the river this same contingent is asking the county to "Repair our Streets First". Does this contigent really want better streets first or would they find some reason to oppose a street plan as well?'

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Another question:

"Zink Lake dam, if constructed in today's dollars would cost about $8 Million. What justification is there for spending almost four times that amount for each of two new dams?"

That is factually incorrect. It cost $8M to build 10years ago.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Another question:

"Zink Lake dam, if constructed in today's dollars would cost about $8 Million. What justification is there for spending almost four times that amount for each of two new dams?"

That is factually incorrect. It cost $8M to build 10years ago.

Zink Lake dam was built in 1983 for a cost of $4 Million.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle



Zink Lake dam was built in 1983 for a cost of $4 Million.

quote:From TulsaWorld.com

1983 Zink Lake


A 1979 sales tax election to fund this project failed.

So in 1981, Tulsa's then-Mayor Jim Inhofe took another approach.

The Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority sold land along the west bank of the river and at 61st Street and Riverside Drive to Lincoln Property Co.

The city used the proceeds from those sales, investment revenue and private donations to pay for the $8 million dam and related projects.

The dam is named after John Steele Zink, whose family foundation was a major private contributor to the project.

$8M for the dam, plus likely more for the pedestrian bridge, shoreline enhancements, etc. in 1983 money.

[pmcalk]

1.  Do we have any specifics on how the private/donated money will be spent?  e.g., where will the gathering places be, how much will be spent per gathering places, will the donators have final say in what they will look like, etc....

2.  Why was the 41st auto bridge dropped from the plan, and will it be possible to add later?

3.  Land acquisition:  How was the $54 million number derived?  Was specific land identified, and if so, which land?  What guarantees do we have over which lands will be acquired, and how that land will be used?

4.  $54 million (or there abouts) seems awfully high for "maintainance".  What sort of maintainance?  Who will decide how/when the money will be spent?

5. What is intended for the "downtown connectors"?

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

1.  Do we have any specifics on how the private/donated money will be spent?  e.g., where will the gathering places be, how much will be spent per gathering places, will the donators have final say in what they will look like, etc....

2.  Why was the 41st auto bridge dropped from the plan, and will it be possible to add later?

3.  Land acquisition:  How was the $54 million number derived?  Was specific land identified, and if so, which land?  What guarantees do we have over which lands will be acquired, and how that land will be used?

4.  $54 million (or there abouts) seems awfully high for "maintainance".  What sort of maintainance?  Who will decide how/when the money will be spent?

5. What is intended for the "downtown connectors"?

I asked about "downtown connectors" and if that included making Houston, Denver or Boulder wider than they are today or some sort of mass transit along these streets. The answer was "No, the connector idea would consist of direction markers, gateways and lighting"

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Its been said that river development should be done by the private sector. Do you think that private developers will build dams in our river? And if so, Can you give us some examples where this has been done previously?

The answer is yes. The existing Zink Lake Dam was built by the private sector.

NO.  Zink was built with predominately public funds generated by the SALE of public property to the private sector.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

1.  Do we have any specifics on how the private/donated money will be spent?  e.g., where will the gathering places be, how much will be spent per gathering places, will the donators have final say in what they will look like, etc....

2.  Why was the 41st auto bridge dropped from the plan, and will it be possible to add later?

3.  Land acquisition:  How was the $54 million number derived?  Was specific land identified, and if so, which land?  What guarantees do we have over which lands will be acquired, and how that land will be used?

4.  $54 million (or there abouts) seems awfully high for "maintainance".  What sort of maintainance?  Who will decide how/when the money will be spent?

5. What is intended for the "downtown connectors"?

I asked about "downtown connectors" and if that included making Houston, Denver or Boulder wider than they are today or some sort of mass transit along these streets. The answer was "No, the connector idea would consist of direction markers, gateways and lighting"

Wow.  $15mm for direction markers, "gateways" (), and lighting.  So we get some big yellow signs with arrows, or green & white ones with "river" and an arrow, more streetlights that we can't afford to keep lit.  How quaint.

I think I'll start a new firm specializing in direction markers, gateways, and lighting unless the fix is already in for someone else.  Sounds like a good gig.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Will the dams have to be the same cheaper Zink Lake designs as originally intended?  

No intent was specified, just that two dams would be built at the locations determined by INCOG's Arkansas River Corridor Master Plan. The designs were dependent upon these locations and, thus, any design would have been premature.

Now that they have the locations, and now the 'dreams' defined, let V2025 build them.

Or, at least work within a budget. These dams have more than doubled in cost due simply to overachieving.

There had to be some intent because even with the matching funds and cost overages estimates the sums they were hoping to eventually get still wouldnt come close to building a dam like the one proposed for Sand Springs. The new Sand Springs design will be taller and have controllable release gates to allow for water to flow during the day. There is no way you can look at what they were hoping to get and then look at the amount these new dam designs will cost and think that they intended anything like these new dams.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle



Zink Lake dam was built in 1983 for a cost of $4 Million.

quote:From TulsaWorld.com

1983 Zink Lake


A 1979 sales tax election to fund this project failed.

So in 1981, Tulsa's then-Mayor Jim Inhofe took another approach.

The Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority sold land along the west bank of the river and at 61st Street and Riverside Drive to Lincoln Property Co.

The city used the proceeds from those sales, investment revenue and private donations to pay for the $8 million dam and related projects.

The dam is named after John Steele Zink, whose family foundation was a major private contributor to the project.

$8M for the dam, plus likely more for the pedestrian bridge, shoreline enhancements, etc. in 1983 money.

You're mistating what you read.
$8 Million total for "dam and related projects"
That's $4 Million for dam + $4 Million for related projects, in 1983 money. Though, in truth, I don't recall any 'related projects', just the $4 Million dam, unless they're counting some financing of some sort. But, the City did not pay any monies, just contributed land. At least, that's what was said then. Ostensibly, the land was already in City stock at the time. However, I find that a bit questionable, especially for the tract at Riverside and Denver.

Since the entire project was a 'private' development, citizens weren't really consulted much about it then. It wasn't as the World is stating it in yesterday's article, where the City actually paid for it. The dam was donated to the City. The City reciprocated with the 3 land tracts (not two).

Additional monies were spent from the 3rd penny for the road reconfiguration around 21st, the public works building, fountains, et al around 1997. That's probably the $10M you're remembering.

IAC, $4 Million in 1983 inflated to today's dollars would be just over $8 Million.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Its been said that river development should be done by the private sector. Do you think that private developers will build dams in our river? And if so, Can you give us some examples where this has been done previously?

The answer is yes. The existing Zink Lake Dam was built by the private sector.

NO.  Zink was built with predominately public funds generated by the SALE of public property to the private sector.

This would be revisionist history.