TulsaNow river forum - post discussion

[sgrizzle]

Mentioned on
KTUL:
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0907/456606.html

FOX23:
http://www.fox23.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=21983@video.fox23.com&navCatId=5


Plenty of forum favorites there (you know who you are). I think DoubleA submitted about half of the questions. Apparently one of the "pro" speakers couldn't make it and her replacement wasn't exactly the best public speaker. Over 100 people were in attendance with more than one who didn't know the current vote had nothing to do with the channels.

Anyone else have any opinions?

[pmcalk]

It amazes me that people still think this is the Channels.  But, then, more than half the population still believes that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.  I think it should be a law that everyone has to read a newspaper at least once a week.

[Rico]

^

There are some numerical similarities... As well as a few of the Players are the same.

Posted in regards to the "Channels".


Warren said The Channels is seeking only the four-tenths of a penny from the voter-approved Vision 2025 sales-tax package that would have gone to Boeing but didn't because Boeing didn't relocate to Tulsa."

Yep, that 4/10ths is just burning a hole in some people's pockets. The sense of entitlement over what some consider money left on the table is just appalling. Nevermind that it would raise our sales tax to nearly 9% for decades.

- Good 'ol Randi Miller is staking her county career on this deal. She basically told INCOG they needed to get on board and support this, even though she acknowledged many of the cities involved wouldn't benefit directly.

[dsjeffries]

I was there, and one of my questions was answered.  I'm still completely in awe of the in-your-face SCARE tactics used by the opponents of the tax.  I didn't count the number of times words like "danger", "fear" and "collapse" were used, though I now think I should have.  To hear John Eagleton say that this tax would literally cause Tulsa's sales tax base to COLLAPSE made me realize just how uninformed and ridiculous the opponents of the tax are...and it's not just a few of them--early on, some woman was on television claiming that companies were going to terminate employees who are against it.  "This tax will never end, just like the tolls on the Turner Turnpike." "Why don't we have two dams from V2025?" "The County is irresponsible and cannot be trusted since Tulsa is under-represented on the panel" "People will move away from Tulsa to cheaper places" "When the sales tax base collapses, we won't be able to have police, fire and ambulance services." "We need good paying jobs for kids-not river amenities" "Build good roads and sewers, and everyone will flock to Tulsa" "Jenks did development without a cent of public money" (which is a lie.. Hello TIF?)

....Those were Eagleton's arguments, along with comparing sales tax revenue increases between Tulsa and Jenks (26% something at near $140m, compared to Jenks's 170% jump to a whopping $3m collected...well, of COURSE in a town so small, one development like RiverWalk is going to make a larger % gain--it's simple math...$140m x .26=$36.4m increase, compared to a $1.5m increase in Jenks).  When he tried to use New York City as an example of 'just how darned high' Tulsa's sales tax is, it was pointed out to him that NYC also has a 15% income tax and comparatively, Tulsa has a much lower tax burden. His response? Nothing notable.


I agree that the Pro-guy who filled in was an absolute disaster... and by the end of the night, I wished to never hear anything from John Eagleton's mouth again.  This first time was enough for me to last a lifetime.

[sgrizzle]

Eagleton made some good points but I think some of his harassing of his opponents was a bit uncalled for. The only really "new" information to me was that the 4/10th's tax would "sunset" early if inhoffe ever comes up with the federal funds that were promised oh so long ago. It was also highlighted that the matching funds requirement for the dams was in the original Vision2025 handouts and articles, but was neglected to be mentioned in the actual ballot.

There were a lot of people coming and going but at any one time there was 100+ so I'd say around 150 attended altogether. The pro people also didn't bring their displays until after the forum started instead of letting people mill around before it began. I was less than impressed with Eagleton's plan which was basically to take out a loan against possible future overages from Vision2025 or to extend the timeframe of the Vision2025 tax. With all of his talk about the unreliability of sales tax, that seemed like a pretty big gamble.


FYI: Tulsa World story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070919_1_A7_spanc70263

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Eagleton made some good points but I think some of his harassing of his opponents was a bit uncalled for. The only really "new" information to me was that the 4/10th's tax would "sunset" early if inhoffe ever comes up with the federal funds that were promised oh so long ago. It was also highlighted that the matching funds requirement for the dams was in the original Vision2025 handouts and articles, but was neglected to be mentioned in the actual ballot.

There were a lot of people coming and going but at any one time there was 100+ so I'd say around 150 attended altogether. The pro people also didn't bring their displays until after the forum started instead of letting people mill around before it began. I was less than impressed with Eagleton's plan which was basically to take out a loan against possible future overages from Vision2025 or to extend the timeframe of the Vision2025 tax. With all of his talk about the unreliability of sales tax, that seemed like a pretty big gamble.


FYI: Tulsa World story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070919_1_A7_spanc70263

Councilor Eagleton has a good business head on his shoulders.

His idea of using the several hundred million dollarss in projected tax collection OVERAGES from Vision 2025 is a sound financial move.

Unfortunately, Tulsa County Financial Advisor John Piercey, the long-time "dear" friend of fellow Tulsa County Ring Unindicted Co-Conspirators Bob Parmele and Dirty Bob Dick, is hiding the financial numbers.

Michael Bates formally asked him for the numbers three weeks ago.  When Mr. Piercey would not comply, Michael Bates reports in his weekly UTW column he even got Commissioner Perry to twist Big John's arm to release the numbers.  

Still, Mr. Piercey is stonewalling providing the Vision 2025 financial projections, and he has NOT complied according to Mr. Bates latest UTW column.

Piercey's hiding the numbers, showing as they will at least a $200 million projected overcollection of Vision 2025 dollars.

Most of the Kaiser River Tax proposal could be done with the existing Vision 2025 tax fund collection income stream.

But the greedy Swells want MORE.

Promoting a new sales tax that hurts Tulsa's poorest and neediest families the worst.  And the Swells could care less.

And, then they'll be back for more, and more, and more, and more taxes.  They are insatiable.

They'll never stop.  They are insatiable TAX VAMPIRES.

Save your wooden stakes.

[!]

[waterboy]

I see the good councilor is still quoting Churchill whom he so closely identifies. What he lacks in logic he more than makes up for with theatrics and snarkiness. Played to the crowd and raised the volume when his points were weakest. That seemed to work.

Afterwards, I tried to get his attention to pose a couple of questions. One was how he thought using v2025 overages to finish the dams was not a tax which he so vehemently opposes. By not pushing to end the tax when v2025 projects are finished, he is in effect extending a tax and delaying construction a decade or more.

The other question is how he thought our tax base would erode with a mere 4/10cent increase in sales tax when 80 miles away OKC raised their sales tax substantially more and leveraged an increase in tax collections. Lastly I wanted to point out that Jenks Riverwalk and the Aquarium were in fact subsidized by public monies though not directly through a sales tax.

He was too busy berating the moderator for giving those other guys too much time for their responses. Never thanked the moderator for his efforts, just smarted off and left. Classy. Colin was gone like the dawn.

I sought out the pro speakers who welcomed my remarks (as one would expect). Thanks, TN for putting it together.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Piercey's hiding the numbers, showing as they will at least a $200 million projected overcollection of Vision 2025 dollars.

Most of the Kaiser River Tax proposal could be done with the existing Vision 2025 tax fund collection income stream.

Source?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Eagleton made some good points but I think some of his harassing of his opponents was a bit uncalled for. The only really "new" information to me was that the 4/10th's tax would "sunset" early if inhoffe ever comes up with the federal funds that were promised oh so long ago. It was also highlighted that the matching funds requirement for the dams was in the original Vision2025 handouts and articles, but was neglected to be mentioned in the actual ballot.

There were a lot of people coming and going but at any one time there was 100+ so I'd say around 150 attended altogether. The pro people also didn't bring their displays until after the forum started instead of letting people mill around before it began. I was less than impressed with Eagleton's plan which was basically to take out a loan against possible future overages from Vision2025 or to extend the timeframe of the Vision2025 tax. With all of his talk about the unreliability of sales tax, that seemed like a pretty big gamble.


FYI: Tulsa World story:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070919_1_A7_spanc70263

Councilor Eagleton has a good business head on his shoulders.

His idea of using the several hundred million dollarss in projected tax collection OVERAGES from Vision 2025 is a sound financial move.

Unfortunately, Tulsa County Financial Advisor John Piercey, the long-time "dear" friend of fellow Tulsa County Ring Unindicted Co-Conspirators Bob Parmele and Dirty Bob Dick, is hiding the financial numbers.

Michael Bates formally asked him for the numbers three weeks ago.  When Mr. Piercey would not comply, Michael Bates reports in his weekly UTW column he even got Commissioner Perry to twist Big John's arm to release the numbers.  

Still, Mr. Piercey is stonewalling providing the Vision 2025 financial projections, and he has NOT complied according to Mr. Bates latest UTW column.

Piercey's hiding the numbers, showing as they will at least a $200 million projected overcollection of Vision 2025 dollars.

Most of the Kaiser River Tax proposal could be done with the existing Vision 2025 tax fund collection income stream.

But the greedy Swells want MORE.

Promoting a new sales tax that hurts Tulsa's poorest and neediest families the worst.  And the Swells could care less.

And, then they'll be back for more, and more, and more, and more taxes.  They are insatiable.

They'll never stop.  They are insatiable TAX VAMPIRES.

Save your wooden stakes.

[!]

The poorest and neediest get a tax rebate that will offset most of the increased tax.

[Conan71]

Eagleton can be over the top, but I didn't notice him make any personal attacks until, I believe it was Gaylon Pinc made a snarky remark about "I don't know where you got your accounting degree...".  You guys are crucifying the messenger and ignoring the messsage.  If your mind is already made up to vote yes and you believe you are fully satisfied you probably aren't going to consider the anti view.

The difference is, Eagleton used hard data, proponents used projections.  John Piercy has been incredibly secretive in his handling of the tax projections and collections.  There are overages.  I had a copy of Piercy's report emailed to me and I have not yet had a chance to digest it all but will comment more when I've read over it and I can compare it to OTC numbers.

I at least tried to learn something from Gaylon Pinc and John Piercy with an open mind.  They were able to soothe a few of my concerns, but there are still many unanswered questions that beg for a longer period of time before we approve this tax.  When Pinc was asked "what is the time frame of completion of plans" he went off on a ramble about "we're going to do this, we're going to do that".  It was a simple question and I believe the answer when he was re-directed was that we are still a year or more off on getting some of these details settled.  Why the rush then?

They don't have the enviro impact study completed as of yet, we have a report due on street repairs and funding mechanisms in December.  There will be a request then for yet more money.  

The pro side still has lots of questions to answer, and I don't think they can do it by Oct. 9.

High sales taxes are a dis-incentive for tourism and convention business.  Has everyone already forgotten that the city annex of the Fairgrounds was put on hold due to the demands of the Arabian horse show people not wanting high sales tax?

If NYC had a 23%+ sales tax instead of a 15% income tax and around a 9% sales tax, it would drastically impact tourism and convention business.  

Politicians and bureaucrats are using the "Oklahoma has one of the lowest tax burdens" to justify fleecing the tax payers at every convenient turn.  Has anyone even begun to consider the administrative costs on this project?

[bokworker]

"some woman on tv was claiming that companies were going to terminate employees that were against the tax"...... Friendly Bear was on TV?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

The difference is, Eagleton used hard data, proponents used projections.  

No projections? His main argument was using a "projected" Vision2025 overage to pay for work done now.

He also chastised the moderator for the fact Gaylon Pinc wouldn't shut up.

Eagleton made some good points but I know if I told my bank that I projected I will be making a lot more 5 years from now, they probably won't give me a loan on it.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Piercey's hiding the numbers, showing as they will at least a $200 million projected overcollection of Vision 2025 dollars.

Most of the Kaiser River Tax proposal could be done with the existing Vision 2025 tax fund collection income stream.

Source?

Eagleton said that last night, but also said Sales Tax was increasing slower than inflation, but somehow Vision2025 is going to collect 33% more than projected.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

The difference is, Eagleton used hard data, proponents used projections.  

No projections? His main argument was using a "projected" Vision2025 overage to pay for work done now.

He also chastised the moderator for the fact Gaylon Pinc wouldn't shut up.

Eagleton made some good points but I know if I told my bank that I projected I will be making a lot more 5 years from now, they probably won't give me a loan on it.

Okay, you got me on that one.  I was referring to his use of historical data and hard facts on many of the questions.

Of course the yes guys whole point is projecting sales tax collections on the new tax and the possibility of federal funding which could end the tax early.  They will be able to get financing with that.  

If we had a more open and less hesitant accounting of the projections on the V-2025 tax we might just be able to do what Councilor Eagleton was suggesting.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Eagleton can be over the top, but I didn't notice him make any personal attacks until, I believe it was Gaylon Pinc made a snarky remark about "I don't know where you got your accounting degree...".  You guys are crucifying the messenger and ignoring the messsage.  If your mind is already made up to vote yes and you believe you are fully satisfied you probably aren't going to consider the anti view.

The difference is, Eagleton used hard data, proponents used projections.  John Piercy has been incredibly secretive in his handling of the tax projections and collections.  There are overages.  I had a copy of Piercy's report emailed to me and I have not yet had a chance to digest it all but will comment more when I've read over it and I can compare it to OTC numbers.

I at least tried to learn something from Gaylon Pinc and John Piercy with an open mind.  They were able to soothe a few of my concerns, but there are still many unanswered questions that beg for a longer period of time before we approve this tax.  When Pinc was asked "what is the time frame of completion of plans" he went off on a ramble about "we're going to do this, we're going to do that".  It was a simple question and I believe the answer when he was re-directed was that we are still a year or more off on getting some of these details settled.  Why the rush then?

They don't have the enviro impact study completed as of yet, we have a report due on street repairs and funding mechanisms in December.  There will be a request then for yet more money.  

The pro side still has lots of questions to answer, and I don't think they can do it by Oct. 9.

High sales taxes are a dis-incentive for tourism and convention business.  Has everyone already forgotten that the city annex of the Fairgrounds was put on hold due to the demands of the Arabian horse show people not wanting high sales tax?

If NYC had a 23%+ sales tax instead of a 15% income tax and around a 9% sales tax, it would drastically impact tourism and convention business.  

Politicians and bureaucrats are using the "Oklahoma has one of the lowest tax burdens" to justify fleecing the tax payers at every convenient turn.  Has anyone even begun to consider the administrative costs on this project?

Much of what you say is also applicable to the con side. Unlike AA, I believe the audience is more undecided than committed. Both sides received applause from the same people. I still believe the project is hampered by not having a blowhard of its own like Eagleton.

I could take your remarks/concerns one by one but I'll address a couple and put my spin on the bottom line.

"High sales taxes are a dis-incentive for tourism and convention business.  Has everyone already forgotten that the city annex of the Fairgrounds was put on hold due to the demands of the Arabian horse show people not wanting high sales tax?"

No proof of that. In fact its counterintuitive. Tourists/convention planners don't consider sales tax when planning their trips. Its a one time expenditure and as tourists they know they pay a premium to be entertained. No one says, "I'd like to ride the cable cars, but those sales taxes are just too damn high!"

And the Horse Show people didn't object to a higher tax, they objected to the tax being raised AFTER they had already committed, budgeted and contracted. Quite different.

"If NYC had a 23%+ sales tax instead of a 15% income tax and around a 9% sales tax, it would drastically impact tourism and convention business.  Politicians and bureaucrats are using the Oklahoma has one of the lowest tax burdens to justify fleecing the tax payers at every convenient turn."

Yes a 23% sales tax would be prohibitive to everyone not just tourists. But to say the tax burden in NYC is lower than Tulsa is simply not true. And your implication is that there are other ways to tax the people that are more palatable. Are you conservative anti-tax or faux conservative anti-tax? At least a sales tax means visitors carry the load, not property owners.

And my analogy of the day. Anyone who has ever built a new home is familiar with the process the county is going through with the river project. You start out with a plan, an estimated budget, a banker to finance you and a builder you trust (or not). If your smart you'll employ an architect but most don't. Thats when the fun begins. Within no time you'll be over budget, adding and subtracting features, hassling over trim, doorknobs, lighting etc. and desperately trying to hold the line on costs. Then you find out the garage is designed over a slab of bedrock, and has to be moved to the other side, the bathroom is too small, the banker is impatient, the builder is too busy to talk, subs aren't being paid and show up drunk, the carpet came in the wrong design, and on..and on. Still you get a home built and its beautiful, the bank closes and is happy, the next buyer has no idea all the trouble you went through but loves your house.

That's life, its no different for public construction either except EVERYONE is watching and critiquing. Mostly those who never built a new house!