The Final Push........"River Tax"

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I am glad to see that details have emerged and questions have been addressed. The Tulsa World has spent a lot of print space explaining, visualizing the plan and answering questions. Though they have a positive slant on them and the answers are not always to my liking, they have responded.

Meanwhile, the no side continues to offer up conspiracies, unrelated road issues, doom & gloom scenarios, sign burnings and politics. It must be hard for them to only be able to rely on neo-conservative radio stations and alternative weeklies to get their message across. Any businessman who thinks they are getting good advertising value from those vehicles should pay attention to the weak and narrow response they elicit.

Did anyone notice that Congressman Sullivan came out in favor of the river development? Every leading businessman and politician from both sides sees the potential. The more I see the no arguments and who lines up with them, the more committed I become a "yes".

The Lorton's World really outdid themselves with their bias.  They had no less than FOUR Reader's Forum Op-Ed endorsements of the Kaiser River Tax in their Sunday paper.  FOUR.

As to the multitude of local businessmen who endorse the Vote YES Tax Grab, they can easily do so for one very simple reason:

By and large, they are not paying for it.

The 500,000 residents of Tulsa County will be paying for it.

Some of the prominent local businessmen should really think twice before they publically endorse the tax.  Quick-Trip's Chester the Jester, for instance.

Those of a Vote No persuasion could easily find another business to patronize.

[]

I am honored you chose my post to respond to. Surprised you found time to respond being so busy with KFAQ and all.

The World is attempting to use their private business to take a leadership role in the community. Most award winning newspapers do the same. Just like KFAQ who blathers on about good and evil, liberals and the devil all morning. Do they allow equal time for yes forces? If you want equal time print your own newspaper.

The World printed negative news stories about the plan early on, even one about the sewage treatment plant, but frankly, no one steps up with any legitimate no arguments to be published. Only accusations, fear mongering and threats like you use.

And why aren't the local oligarchy's toadies, the leading businessmen, not going to pay for the river development? Do they not pay that 4/10 cent tax? Are they excluded? Or do you assume they buy everything online or out of state where taxes are lower?

There will be a price to pay for the mindless opposition to any taxpayer funded progress your group embraces. Your threats don't scare anyone.

Threats?  No threats have been made.

There is however an acknowledged risk that local businessmen make when they choose to inject themselves in politics.  

It's a risk that possibly it will turn around and bite them in loss of clientele.  That's isn't a new idea, and it's no threat.  

Quick-Trip is diversified far outside of Tulsa County, and even if fewer people patronized them due to their leadership's promotion of the new tax, it would not sink them.

What is hurting them is lost cigarette sales due to Indian Smoke Shops.  Cigarettes bring a lot of people into their stores, then are cross-sold other products.

I believe that when Quick-Trip or any other retailer buys merchandise for RE-SALE, they pay NO SALES TAX.  Nada.

They do charge their customers sales tax, however, on the final sale of the product.

They would pay the equivalent Use Tax for goods they buy for internal use, such as cleaning supplies, for instance.

I have nothing at all to do with KFAQ.  I do think that KFAQ airing the issue of the proposed 61st Pedestrian Bridge passing directly over the Sewage Plant Overflow lagoon may have prompted the Lorton's World to subsequently file a news article regarding the river "smell".

Leadership by the Lorton's World?

Surely, you jest.

No, they are one of the Controlling Oligarchy Families here in Tulsa.  They want control.  

They promoted with lavish, feel good, pie-in-the-sky optimism the city's investment in Great Plains Airlines, while retaining a secret majority equity interest in the company.  

That was craven financial self-dealing at the public expense.

And, to my knowledge, they are a major shareholder in F&M Bank, who just coincidentally received one-half of the Vision 2025 Bond Underwriting work, without I might add of having the benefit of Competitive bidding.

And, the Lorton's World never met a tax it didn't like, except for a sales tax on newspapers.

Definitely did NOT like that tax!

As an aside, I think you are cowardly. You attack others who have the courage to use their real names and those who put their businesses and reputations on the line with support for this program.

No one is exempt from your accusations of impropriety yet no one knows from where or how credible those accusations are. That's gutless and cowardly. You wait for someone to oppose your view then find out all you can about them personally or professionally and start slinging the half truths.

Strangely, you disappeared for awhile and only showed back up on these pages when the river program surfaced. Perhaps you are a paid internet assassin?

So tell me, Bob, how is it that you know so much inside info? Is that because you have a history with the city? County? State? Have you been at the trough and know how the big boys slurp? Can't afford to let anyone know lest they count the number of signs in your yard and the size of your domicile?

We deserve to know whether you're just a saint with a past or a sinner with a future.

[jackbristow]

I don't understand why so many of you and other people I talk to think that the plans are so "incomplete" and "obscure".  

The plan puts more dams in the river!  That is the main point for me.  It also allows for new development along the river and helps it attract more private investment.  Sure, there are some ped bridges and stuff as well coming out of the tax...but if my extra $50 per year or whatever goes to dams to get consistent water in the River and helps attract more river development, I'm all for it.  None of the other stuff looks or sounds bad to me...if it were, I might hold off on voting for dams, but as it is, I want my dams.  DAM IT!

The incomplete and obscure parts are the privately funded parts are they not?  I think the tax funded portion is pretty straightforward.  I think they are doing too much trying to sell us on the privately funded part and confusing a lot of people over that.

[sauerkraut]

The River is Tulsa's only natural resource, So Tulsa should do what it must to make the most of it. I'm a big fan of improving the jogging trails and making them longer, however the boat rental thing and other things like that seem like a nifty ideas too. I don't think the tax will pass. on Gwen freeman's morn. radio show 1170 KFAQ am it was mentioned that there are alot of people against the tax and it will likely fail. Gwen is against it. I guess it depends on voter turn out..

[Rico]

Originally posted by sgrizzle.
I just haven't seen anywhere, or in the posted graphic, where there was $40M for a study. There is a transportation study as a small part of a $15M budget for downtown connectors.


And as usual you are correct.... The error of adding the contingency fund and the DT connector and transportation study is all on me...
A thousand pardons.

On another thread regarding this subject...
Kenosha stated "the Downtown connector portion of the plan may be one of the best parts" or something to that effect......

I did not realize it was just a small portion of a measly $15 million....

Adios and later...... Compadre

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

I don't understand why so many of you and other people I talk to think that the plans are so "incomplete" and "obscure".  

The incomplete and obscure parts are the privately funded parts are they not?  I think the tax funded portion is pretty straightforward.  I think they are doing too much trying to sell us on the privately funded part and confusing a lot of people over that.

To answer your last paragraph:

No.  No.  And finally, they are trying to over-sell the whole project.

Where are final site plans?  Where's the final environmental impact study?  How many more studies need to be completed? Where's a true itemization of costs (there are loosely packaged "aspects" with prices) and what exactly is funded on each part?  What the heck is a "connector"?  Are we getting a pedestrian or mixed use bridge at 41st?  Are we getting a ped bridge at 61st?  Is Westport a part of the package?

That's pretty obscure if you ask me.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

Originally posted by sgrizzle.
I just haven't seen anywhere, or in the posted graphic, where there was $40M for a study. There is a transportation study as a small part of a $15M budget for downtown connectors.


And as usual you are correct.... The error of adding the contingency fund and the DT connector and transportation study is all on me...
A thousand pardons.

On another thread regarding this subject...
Kenosha stated "the Downtown connector portion of the plan may be one of the best parts" or something to that effect......

I did not realize it was just a small portion of a measly $15 million....

Adios and later...... Compadre

No problem. It seemed completely wrong when I first read it and I thought the post was written by an impassioned Jovial Woodland creature who often posts such things. I didn't even notice it was you at first.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I am glad to see that details have emerged and questions have been addressed. The Tulsa World has spent a lot of print space explaining, visualizing the plan and answering questions. Though they have a positive slant on them and the answers are not always to my liking, they have responded.

Meanwhile, the no side continues to offer up conspiracies, unrelated road issues, doom & gloom scenarios, sign burnings and politics. It must be hard for them to only be able to rely on neo-conservative radio stations and alternative weeklies to get their message across. Any businessman who thinks they are getting good advertising value from those vehicles should pay attention to the weak and narrow response they elicit.

Did anyone notice that Congressman Sullivan came out in favor of the river development? Every leading businessman and politician from both sides sees the potential. The more I see the no arguments and who lines up with them, the more committed I become a "yes".

The Lorton's World really outdid themselves with their bias.  They had no less than FOUR Reader's Forum Op-Ed endorsements of the Kaiser River Tax in their Sunday paper.  FOUR.

As to the multitude of local businessmen who endorse the Vote YES Tax Grab, they can easily do so for one very simple reason:

By and large, they are not paying for it.

The 500,000 residents of Tulsa County will be paying for it.

Some of the prominent local businessmen should really think twice before they publically endorse the tax.  Quick-Trip's Chester the Jester, for instance.

Those of a Vote No persuasion could easily find another business to patronize.

[]

I am honored you chose my post to respond to. Surprised you found time to respond being so busy with KFAQ and all.

The World is attempting to use their private business to take a leadership role in the community. Most award winning newspapers do the same. Just like KFAQ who blathers on about good and evil, liberals and the devil all morning. Do they allow equal time for yes forces? If you want equal time print your own newspaper.

The World printed negative news stories about the plan early on, even one about the sewage treatment plant, but frankly, no one steps up with any legitimate no arguments to be published. Only accusations, fear mongering and threats like you use.

And why aren't the local oligarchy's toadies, the leading businessmen, not going to pay for the river development? Do they not pay that 4/10 cent tax? Are they excluded? Or do you assume they buy everything online or out of state where taxes are lower?

There will be a price to pay for the mindless opposition to any taxpayer funded progress your group embraces. Your threats don't scare anyone.

Threats?  No threats have been made.

There is however an acknowledged risk that local businessmen make when they choose to inject themselves in politics.  

It's a risk that possibly it will turn around and bite them in loss of clientele.  That's isn't a new idea, and it's no threat.  

Quick-Trip is diversified far outside of Tulsa County, and even if fewer people patronized them due to their leadership's promotion of the new tax, it would not sink them.

What is hurting them is lost cigarette sales due to Indian Smoke Shops.  Cigarettes bring a lot of people into their stores, then are cross-sold other products.

I believe that when Quick-Trip or any other retailer buys merchandise for RE-SALE, they pay NO SALES TAX.  Nada.

They do charge their customers sales tax, however, on the final sale of the product.

They would pay the equivalent Use Tax for goods they buy for internal use, such as cleaning supplies, for instance.

I have nothing at all to do with KFAQ.  I do think that KFAQ airing the issue of the proposed 61st Pedestrian Bridge passing directly over the Sewage Plant Overflow lagoon may have prompted the Lorton's World to subsequently file a news article regarding the river "smell".

Leadership by the Lorton's World?

Surely, you jest.

No, they are one of the Controlling Oligarchy Families here in Tulsa.  They want control.  

They promoted with lavish, feel good, pie-in-the-sky optimism the city's investment in Great Plains Airlines, while retaining a secret majority equity interest in the company.  

That was craven financial self-dealing at the public expense.

And, to my knowledge, they are a major shareholder in F&M Bank, who just coincidentally received one-half of the Vision 2025 Bond Underwriting work, without I might add of having the benefit of Competitive bidding.

And, the Lorton's World never met a tax it didn't like, except for a sales tax on newspapers.

Definitely did NOT like that tax!

As an aside, I think you are cowardly. You attack others who have the courage to use their real names and those who put their businesses and reputations on the line with support for this program.

No one is exempt from your accusations of impropriety yet no one knows from where or how credible those accusations are. That's gutless and cowardly. You wait for someone to oppose your view then find out all you can about them personally or professionally and start slinging the half truths.

Strangely, you disappeared for awhile and only showed back up on these pages when the river program surfaced. Perhaps you are a paid internet assassin?

So tell me, Bob, how is it that you know so much inside info? Is that because you have a history with the city? County? State? Have you been at the trough and know how the big boys slurp? Can't afford to let anyone know lest they count the number of signs in your yard and the size of your domicile?

We deserve to know whether you're just a saint with a past or a sinner with a future.

Wow, such negative, harsh, personal vitriole, you and RecycleMichael need to enroll in Anger Management therapy, ASAP.

At least I'm glad you aren't keeping that Anger all bottled up inside you.

All I really need is Love.  Just Love.

I'm surprised the Forum Administrator does not DELETE your oh so personal and harsh attacks.  

Wonder why not??

Speaking of hiding, so, is Waterboy your First Name, or your Last Name?  That's your real name, I presume.  

As to the resurrection of the Friendly Bear, the Bear started stirring at the end of his last hibernation cycle due to disturbances along the River.  There were rumors of a new Sales Tax.

Friendly Bear likes fish, honey, and berries.  

He doesn't like new Sales Taxes.

You're certainly correct that the FB is afraid....

He's very afraid for the future for our oppressed and exploited local citizenry, already paying 8.517% on every non-Rx good purchased.  

Did I mention that Tulsa County already has the Highest Property Taxes in the State?

Will our Sales Tax at 8.917% be the highest of any major city in the Southweat U.S.?

Not if I can stop it.

But, he's so very afraid of the native Tax Vampires.  They are always hungry.

When they are at their hungriest, they are relentless and remorseless in their pursuit of fresh tax dollars.  

Why??

They NEED to FEED their GREED.  

And, we're on the menu.

[]

[swake]

The vote is really pretty simple, we are voting on spending $282 million dollars to fix the existing dam, build two new dams, and to create a "living" river channel in between. Also included are two pedestrian bridges, the purchase of large  piece of land at 21st for commercial development along with two smaller pieces in Bixby and Broken Arrow. And  some partial funding for road improvements in the area of the river.

Local philanthropists will be adding in $117 million to improve and develop parklands along the river and a private developer from Missouri has said he want to build a $500 million center on the land at 21st.

It's $899 million in development on the river (just to start and not counting anything in Jenks) for under half a penny sales tax.

What is so obscure and shadowy?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

How many of you would ever buy a house on-line without so much as looking inside it, or much less having structural and EMP inspections done?  Of course you wouldn't because you don't have enough information to make sure it's a sound investment.

The call to vote no is hardly fear, it's common sense.

This is a great question.  I'll respond, if you don't mind, by suggesting a slightly different metaphor.

This vote isn't like buying a house, sight unseen.  This vote is like deciding you want to build a new house, and getting the money together to do so.

Those of you who want more details: if you were planning to build a home, and you were shopping for architects, how detailed would you expect the renderings to be?  Would you expect detailed blueprints?  No, because those don't get made until you are ready to proceed.  You would look at renderings and get a sense of the builder's vision.  

What we have here is a fairly detailed outline of what our river can look like.  Plans can change.  Blueprints won't exist until we have funds in hand to pay for them.  If you don't like this vision, or don't want to pay for it, vote no.  If you are willing to pay, vote yes.  It's really that simple.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by swake

The vote is really pretty simple, we are voting on spending $282 million dollars to fix the existing dam, build two new dams, and to create a "living" river channel in between. Also included are two pedestrian bridges, the purchase of large  piece of land at 21st for commercial development along with two smaller pieces in Bixby and Broken Arrow. And  some partial funding for road improvements in the area of the river.

Local philanthropists will be adding in $117 million to improve and develop parklands along the river and a private developer from Missouri has said he want to build a $500 million center on the land at 21st.

It's $899 million in development on the river (just to start and not counting anything in Jenks) for under half a penny sales tax.

What is so obscure and shadowy?

Where has anyone specified what land is to be purchased?  Everything I have read says that what land and where, and for what purpose will all be determined later by the new river authority.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

Ok, im voting for this but im not happy...
where is the detailed planned retail/mixed use that was shown in all the initial drawings?... are they going to get the blair property?...

without retail/mixed-use and without getting the blair land, this is just a bigger nicer park... gathering areas are bull****... no amount of improvement to just get a "nicer park" is going to get this town a damn thing... im only for it because of the west bank land acquistion and kaisers money is already on the table... and that damn 41st pedestrian bridge, wth? where is that going? who is going to cross to the west side at 41st? should have made that an auto bridge and really connected the west bank...

and i agree, those editorials by the typro clowns were complete bull****... not a single one of those kids' more successful colleagues is going to move to tulsa because we fixed up the river... hell, 3 of those jackasses mentioned downtown and connectors or not, this plan won't do diddly for downtown...

apparently, nothing will be done on the east bank- which is a huge mistake... and im not happy about it...

Why vote for it if you are not happy with it? You really can't be buying into the B.S. about this being the last and only chance to develop the river? The high pressure sale and emotional appeals for this hastily thrown together, conceptual, unspecific, undetailed, river development tax, is necessary because it does not stand on it's own merits. The reality is we can turn this down on Oct 9, develop a real river development financing plan instead of just vague concepts for river development with unreliable cost estimates. We could vote on it as soon as the state/county primary elections or later in the November general elections. You gave many reasons you are unhappy with this tax, yet you didn't give any for why you'll support it. Care to share?

because sometimes you settle... you take what you can get, when you can get it... i dont think this is the last chance for the river but it is the only option NOW and i want something done now not five or ten years from now... plus, i'll take a nice park; i just want the mixed-use as well... it is not really an either or for me... i just wish theyd gone for broke and even planned more... i'm willing to concede on the 41st street bridge... after ten years of marriage i'm willing to compromise, a lot... and finally, i don't think we pay enough im taxes for what we expect anyway... so tax on little doggie, i'll pay it...

We could very easily be voting on a real river development plan in less than a year from now, instead of just settling for concepts. I would like to see river development happen soon, but I can wait a year to do it right, instead of just rushing into this and hoping for the best. I cannot vote for this in good conscience, there's just too many objectionable aspects for me to ignore.

[TheArtist]

Most of the things we voted for in 2025 didnt have exact plans either. They got the money, then sought out architects, etc. We had no idea what the arena was going to even look like for instance, or the TCC southeast campus addition, or the OSU Tulsa building, or OU or, Langstons building or the Morton health Care Center or the "downtowns and neighborhoods" part, or ....

[inteller]

i suspect if BA and noth tulsa turn out in force, along with a large bloc of jenks voters who are getting their development done PRIVATELY, this thing will fail miserably.  Of course, stranger things have happened to ballot boxes.

[Tony]

Tulsa's only resource, OUR RIVER, what hubris !! The Arkansas starts up in Colorado and flows thru FOUR states - over 1000 miles ----
What blind shortsighted people exist on this forum -- you will not listen to scientific biologists, only to the DAM and Construct mentality of the USACE -- the same USACE that couldn't engineer levies in New Orleans,(who enabled its short below sea level existance) who nearly wiped out the Everglades, one of the most important natural eco-systems in the US with their "channelization projects" that are now being restored again. A kinder, gentler USACE B.S. -- when you guys have finished shatting in your beds I hope you no longer have a place to lay down. When you have killed off important fish in the Arkansas through Tulsa, I hope you are PROUD of your accomplishments - after all you WILL be responsible for the Frankenstein of your making -- US Fish and Wildlife along with Biologists from Oklahoma Department of WILDLIFE Conservation  - HAVE gone on RECORD stating what they believe dams will do -- I hope Tulsa voters see through this sham --

No amount of parsing will change what the Scientists trained in this area have said --

On with your commercial[!]

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by swake

Also included are two pedestrian bridges, the purchase of large  piece of land at 21st for commercial development along with two smaller pieces in Bixby and Broken Arrow.

Where in the ballot resolution is there a commitment to purchasing land at 21st Street?