The New Tulsa Landing (if the river vote passes)

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85
To answer your question Oil Capital:
No.  The Landing project as I understand it will be primarily retail focused, with some housing and office.  Downtown is obviously still the hub of office space for the Tulsa metro area, and the Blue Dome and Brady Arts districts can still provide residential space in closer proximity to workplaces than the Landing project will.  When you talk of demand, you must also consider the possibility of creating demand.  The more successful downtown becomes in attracting nightlife, the higher the demand for downtown housing will be.  Within a target market, all products/concepts go through a life cycle.  Take cell phones, for example.  How many people did you know that owned cell phones fifteen years ago?  Probably very few, the ones that did are known as the innovators.  How about ten years ago?  Probably a lot more, but probably not the parents or grandparents of the individuals who did own cell phones at the time.  The ten-year cell phone owners are known as early adopters.  The last two categories in the process are the late adopters and the laggards.  Urban housing works the same way.  The demand increases as the product becomes more proven and as less and less psychological risk is associated with the product in the mind of consumers.  Locally, Tulsa's urban housing dwellers are mostly part of the innovator group.  But I can tell you from my personal "young professional" experience, urban housing is in even higher demand on a local scale than the city leaders realize.  Today, you may be right.  If today, there suddenly appeared a Tulsa Landing and all of the Downtown loft projects were finished, there might be a lot of vacancy for a while.  But as it stands, there is a lot of build-up and not a lot of products.  Most downtown loft projects are not finished and Tulsa Landing still only exists in paper and digital form.  As long as Tulsa doesn't have a major recession, or some other exogenous factor doesn't weigh in, I believe a Tulsa Landing-type project and Downtown lofts can coexist.    The combined metro population of Tulsa; OKC; Ft. Smith, AR; Northwest AR; Springfield, MO; Joplin, MO; and Wichita, KS; is over 3.5 million people.  You can't tell me there aren't at least a thousand or two individuals within that 3.5mil+ population that can't be reeled into Tulsa's urban scene.  With an adequate marketing effort, all of Tulsa's urban housing nodes will complement each other.

See, this is why your name is perspicuity... Nicely put []

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by BKDotCom

quote: The construction will hinge on Tulsa County voters approving the sales tax on Oct. 9, said Rick Huffman,...

quote: "Passage of the vote is necessary for land acquisition," Huffman said Wednesday morning.

Where's the spin??

"The baseball stadium will be large enough to house a AAA franchise, which requires seating capacity between 20,000 and 22,000, Huffman said."
---from 10/3 Tulsa Business article

"It is not intended to be the home of a minor league baseball team, Huffman said."
---from 10/5 Tulsa World article

Either this is spin or "Lucy's got some splainin to do..." [:I]

[TheArtist]

OMG, I just got a new kitten!

[USRufnex]

Yeah, I'll keep the kitty on here until Tuesday's vote... but the hypno-toad is starting to get jealous...

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85
To answer your question Oil Capital:
No.  The Landing project as I understand it will be primarily retail focused, with some housing and office.  Downtown is obviously still the hub of office space for the Tulsa metro area, and the Blue Dome and Brady Arts districts can still provide residential space in closer proximity to workplaces than the Landing project will.  When you talk of demand, you must also consider the possibility of creating demand.  The more successful downtown becomes in attracting nightlife, the higher the demand for downtown housing will be.  Within a target market, all products/concepts go through a life cycle.  Take cell phones, for example.  How many people did you know that owned cell phones fifteen years ago?  Probably very few, the ones that did are known as the innovators.  How about ten years ago?  Probably a lot more, but probably not the parents or grandparents of the individuals who did own cell phones at the time.  The ten-year cell phone owners are known as early adopters.  The last two categories in the process are the late adopters and the laggards.  Urban housing works the same way.  The demand increases as the product becomes more proven and as less and less psychological risk is associated with the product in the mind of consumers.  Locally, Tulsa's urban housing dwellers are mostly part of the innovator group.  But I can tell you from my personal "young professional" experience, urban housing is in even higher demand on a local scale than the city leaders realize.  Today, you may be right.  If today, there suddenly appeared a Tulsa Landing and all of the Downtown loft projects were finished, there might be a lot of vacancy for a while.  But as it stands, there is a lot of build-up and not a lot of products.  Most downtown loft projects are not finished and Tulsa Landing still only exists in paper and digital form.  As long as Tulsa doesn't have a major recession, or some other exogenous factor doesn't weigh in, I believe a Tulsa Landing-type project and Downtown lofts can coexist.    The combined metro population of Tulsa; OKC; Ft. Smith, AR; Northwest AR; Springfield, MO; Joplin, MO; and Wichita, KS; is over 3.5 million people.  You can't tell me there aren't at least a thousand or two individuals within that 3.5mil+ population that can't be reeled into Tulsa's urban scene.  With an adequate marketing effort, all of Tulsa's urban housing nodes will complement each other.

See, this is why your name is perspicuity... Nicely put []

Show me where all the high paying jobs are in Tulsa for young professionals that pay enough to afford 250,000-$300,000 dollar mortgages.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85
To answer your question Oil Capital:
No.  The Landing project as I understand it will be primarily retail focused, with some housing and office.  Downtown is obviously still the hub of office space for the Tulsa metro area, and the Blue Dome and Brady Arts districts can still provide residential space in closer proximity to workplaces than the Landing project will.  When you talk of demand, you must also consider the possibility of creating demand.  The more successful downtown becomes in attracting nightlife, the higher the demand for downtown housing will be.  Within a target market, all products/concepts go through a life cycle.  Take cell phones, for example.  How many people did you know that owned cell phones fifteen years ago?  Probably very few, the ones that did are known as the innovators.  How about ten years ago?  Probably a lot more, but probably not the parents or grandparents of the individuals who did own cell phones at the time.  The ten-year cell phone owners are known as early adopters.  The last two categories in the process are the late adopters and the laggards.  Urban housing works the same way.  The demand increases as the product becomes more proven and as less and less psychological risk is associated with the product in the mind of consumers.  Locally, Tulsa's urban housing dwellers are mostly part of the innovator group.  But I can tell you from my personal "young professional" experience, urban housing is in even higher demand on a local scale than the city leaders realize.  Today, you may be right.  If today, there suddenly appeared a Tulsa Landing and all of the Downtown loft projects were finished, there might be a lot of vacancy for a while.  But as it stands, there is a lot of build-up and not a lot of products.  Most downtown loft projects are not finished and Tulsa Landing still only exists in paper and digital form.  As long as Tulsa doesn't have a major recession, or some other exogenous factor doesn't weigh in, I believe a Tulsa Landing-type project and Downtown lofts can coexist.    The combined metro population of Tulsa; OKC; Ft. Smith, AR; Northwest AR; Springfield, MO; Joplin, MO; and Wichita, KS; is over 3.5 million people.  You can't tell me there aren't at least a thousand or two individuals within that 3.5mil+ population that can't be reeled into Tulsa's urban scene.  With an adequate marketing effort, all of Tulsa's urban housing nodes will complement each other.

See, this is why your name is perspicuity... Nicely put []

Show me where all the high paying jobs are in Tulsa for young professionals that pay enough to afford 250,000-$300,000 dollar mortgages.

If your reading this... your looking right at it.

Many people can work from their computers.

Many people travel all over the country for work. They can pretty much choose wherever they want to live.

I have a friend who is a motivational speaker and writer. Another who works for companies helping them find ways to make them more efficient. Another who is a language specialist,teaches and helps with movies by making sure an actors accent is correct for instance. Another in sales advertising. I know several architects. I am an artist but do work all over the country, more and more casinos in Oklahoma lately lol. Many are self employed, or own their own businesses and employ people. In other words, they dont get hired, they do the hiring. Have several friends who have started their own computer related businesses. Plus, many of those people, and others I know, often do more than one thing for a living or have more than one source of income.

Your very question shows what your used to, your frame of reference, and the world you are familiar with and how that works. But that is not the only way. There are different ways of seeing and doing things that others are used to. Different perspectives and expectations. The use of the word "job" instead of "career" can be telling.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Floyd-" I don't have the time or energy to lay it out in mind-numbing detail, but believe me, what's in the drawings is a conceptualization of what's on the ballot combined with the promised donations."

Believe me Floyd, they are depending on this response. They have flooded these posts with as many stupid allegations as time permits with no real support for their claims forthcoming. Multiple threads by the same folks all with some "new" fallacy or weakness in the plan. The idea is to poke as many little holes in the plan as they can by hinting at incompetence, insider activity, and rushed planning. By poking all those little holes they believe the public will perceive that it is a leaky boat.

As far as cannabalizing, thats also a weak argument. I once asked a K-mart manager if he was concerned about a new Target opening up nearby. He said he was excited as hell. They do excellent site research, advertise a lot and wherever we are near one, our store shows consistently increasing sales. The synergy of pumping more capital into an area and seeing it create more sales for everyone else is well known. That is why a shopping center always wants a visible, active anchor who spends money to bring in customers. All the little stores want to coat tail.

It may be counter-intuitive but no mystery to those involved.

How many K-marts have closed their doors in Tulsa? Too easy.

That's your problem AA. You always think things are easy. Try to camouflage your lack of knowledge with more clever one liners. Its not the players doofus (K-Mart) its the concept of synergy. Players in retail come and go. Visit 21st and Yale and watch how that synergy put a Target, a Sears and Gordmans all in one strip.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Floyd-" I don't have the time or energy to lay it out in mind-numbing detail, but believe me, what's in the drawings is a conceptualization of what's on the ballot combined with the promised donations."

Believe me Floyd, they are depending on this response. They have flooded these posts with as many stupid allegations as time permits with no real support for their claims forthcoming. Multiple threads by the same folks all with some "new" fallacy or weakness in the plan. The idea is to poke as many little holes in the plan as they can by hinting at incompetence, insider activity, and rushed planning. By poking all those little holes they believe the public will perceive that it is a leaky boat.

As far as cannabalizing, thats also a weak argument. I once asked a K-mart manager if he was concerned about a new Target opening up nearby. He said he was excited as hell. They do excellent site research, advertise a lot and wherever we are near one, our store shows consistently increasing sales. The synergy of pumping more capital into an area and seeing it create more sales for everyone else is well known. That is why a shopping center always wants a visible, active anchor who spends money to bring in customers. All the little stores want to coat tail.

It may be counter-intuitive but no mystery to those involved.

How many K-marts have closed their doors in Tulsa? Too easy.

1?

51st & harvard, 21st & 169, Sand Springs are all open.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Floyd-" I don't have the time or energy to lay it out in mind-numbing detail, but believe me, what's in the drawings is a conceptualization of what's on the ballot combined with the promised donations."

Believe me Floyd, they are depending on this response. They have flooded these posts with as many stupid allegations as time permits with no real support for their claims forthcoming. Multiple threads by the same folks all with some "new" fallacy or weakness in the plan. The idea is to poke as many little holes in the plan as they can by hinting at incompetence, insider activity, and rushed planning. By poking all those little holes they believe the public will perceive that it is a leaky boat.

As far as cannabalizing, thats also a weak argument. I once asked a K-mart manager if he was concerned about a new Target opening up nearby. He said he was excited as hell. They do excellent site research, advertise a lot and wherever we are near one, our store shows consistently increasing sales. The synergy of pumping more capital into an area and seeing it create more sales for everyone else is well known. That is why a shopping center always wants a visible, active anchor who spends money to bring in customers. All the little stores want to coat tail.

It may be counter-intuitive but no mystery to those involved.

How many K-marts have closed their doors in Tulsa? Too easy.

1?

51st & harvard, 21st & 169, Sand Springs are all open.

And the closing of the stores was not for local reasons, K-Mart went into bankrupcy in 2002 closing more than 300 stores and laying off more than 30,000 employees nationally. I think we lost two stores in the metro.

[waterboy]

Downtown, Pearl, Cherry Street, Brookside, Tulsa Hills, Red Fork, Osage casino and future northside retail, RiverWalk, Owasso, Broken Arrow, Sand Springs, Jenks, Bixby and the county in general all will benefit from the development of the river when Tulsa is perceived as a destination for entertainment, dining, arts and recreation. The river area would be our anchor tenant. You don't have to be flashy, but you have to be something. It's up to the surrounding areas to coat tail off the momentum. You get all that for 1/4cent for 7 years or less.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

While this appears like it would be a great development, won't it pretty much kill off any hope for significant downtown retail/restaurant/club/pedestrian development for a very long time to come?  I mean, there's only so much demand for central city retail/housing/urban lifestyle development and I'm afraid Tulsa Landing would pretty much satisfy that demand for quite some time.

To answer your question Oil Capital:
No.  The Landing project as I understand it will be primarily retail focused, with some housing and office.  Downtown is obviously still the hub of office space for the Tulsa metro area, and the Blue Dome and Brady Arts districts can still provide residential space in closer proximity to workplaces than the Landing project will.  When you talk of demand, you must also consider the possibility of creating demand.  The more successful downtown becomes in attracting nightlife, the higher the demand for downtown housing will be.  Within a target market, all products/concepts go through a life cycle.  Take cell phones, for example.  How many people did you know that owned cell phones fifteen years ago?  Probably very few, the ones that did are known as the innovators.  How about ten years ago?  Probably a lot more, but probably not the parents or grandparents of the individuals who did own cell phones at the time.  The ten-year cell phone owners are known as early adopters.  The last two categories in the process are the late adopters and the laggards.  Urban housing works the same way.  The demand increases as the product becomes more proven and as less and less psychological risk is associated with the product in the mind of consumers.  Locally, Tulsa's urban housing dwellers are mostly part of the innovator group.  But I can tell you from my personal "young professional" experience, urban housing is in even higher demand on a local scale than the city leaders realize.  Today, you may be right.  If today, there suddenly appeared a Tulsa Landing and all of the Downtown loft projects were finished, there might be a lot of vacancy for a while.  But as it stands, there is a lot of build-up and not a lot of products.  Most downtown loft projects are not finished and Tulsa Landing still only exists in paper and digital form.  As long as Tulsa doesn't have a major recession, or some other exogenous factor doesn't weigh in, I believe a Tulsa Landing-type project and Downtown lofts can coexist.    The combined metro population of Tulsa; OKC; Ft. Smith, AR; Northwest AR; Springfield, MO; Joplin, MO; and Wichita, KS; is over 3.5 million people.  You can't tell me there aren't at least a thousand or two individuals within that 3.5mil+ population that can't be reeled into Tulsa's urban scene.  With an adequate marketing effort, all of Tulsa's urban housing nodes will complement each other.

You may be right.  I just don't think there's enough to create enough critical mass in 2 or more areas to really attain that urban energy we're hoping for.  

And you completely lost me  when you started adding together the populations of Tulsa, OKC, Wichita, Springfield, Joplin, Northwest Arkansas and Fort Smith.  Few things could be less relevant.  First, I'm not buying that the Tulsa Landing, or any collection of Tulsa Landings, downtown lofts, and iconic arenas are going to cause any significant number of people from those cities and areas to move to Tulsa.  ESPECIALLY since most of them are either doing similar things or are years ahead of Tulsa in this sort of development.  Rein in the expectations a bit...   ;-)

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Floyd-" I don't have the time or energy to lay it out in mind-numbing detail, but believe me, what's in the drawings is a conceptualization of what's on the ballot combined with the promised donations."

Believe me Floyd, they are depending on this response. They have flooded these posts with as many stupid allegations as time permits with no real support for their claims forthcoming. Multiple threads by the same folks all with some "new" fallacy or weakness in the plan. The idea is to poke as many little holes in the plan as they can by hinting at incompetence, insider activity, and rushed planning. By poking all those little holes they believe the public will perceive that it is a leaky boat.

As far as cannabalizing, thats also a weak argument. I once asked a K-mart manager if he was concerned about a new Target opening up nearby. He said he was excited as hell. They do excellent site research, advertise a lot and wherever we are near one, our store shows consistently increasing sales. The synergy of pumping more capital into an area and seeing it create more sales for everyone else is well known. That is why a shopping center always wants a visible, active anchor who spends money to bring in customers. All the little stores want to coat tail.

It may be counter-intuitive but no mystery to those involved.

How many K-marts have closed their doors in Tulsa? Too easy.

That's your problem AA. You always think things are easy. Try to camouflage your lack of knowledge with more clever one liners. Its not the players doofus (K-Mart) its the concept of synergy. Players in retail come and go. Visit 21st and Yale and watch how that synergy put a Target, a Sears and Gordmans all in one strip.

And THERE is the problem with your analogy, Waterboy.  They want the synergy from being in the same strip (and thus the various businesses in Tulsa Landing will love the fact that they are all located on the same parking lot in a pedestrian friendly environment, creating synergy.  They are NOT much interested in being 2 1/2 miles and across a river from other similar establishments.  There is no synergy in such an arrangement.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Double A
Show me where all the high paying jobs are in Tulsa for young professionals that pay enough to afford 250,000-$300,000 dollar mortgages.

I'm not sure where you're getting your specific mortgage figures.  Urban housing and employment go hand in hand these days.  Employers frequently locate offices in cities that have a lot of highly skilled and/or educated workers.  Young professional workers typically want to live in a vibrant urban environment.  There are some very high quality young professional jobs in Tulsa.  Off the top of my head: Winnercomm, SemGroup, BOk, IBM, NORDAM, Gemstar-TVGuide, ONEOK, HILTI, the BAMA Cos, Williams, Dollar Thrifty, Enterprise-Vanguard, QuikTrip Corporate, Flight Safety, Magellan Midstream, and all jobs associated with Tulsa's regional medical services industry are a great place to start.  Continued urban development and further improvements to Tulsa's higher education infrastructure can also play a potentially huge role in attracting more high-paying professional jobs to Tulsa.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Floyd-" I don't have the time or energy to lay it out in mind-numbing detail, but believe me, what's in the drawings is a conceptualization of what's on the ballot combined with the promised donations."

Believe me Floyd, they are depending on this response. They have flooded these posts with as many stupid allegations as time permits with no real support for their claims forthcoming. Multiple threads by the same folks all with some "new" fallacy or weakness in the plan. The idea is to poke as many little holes in the plan as they can by hinting at incompetence, insider activity, and rushed planning. By poking all those little holes they believe the public will perceive that it is a leaky boat.

As far as cannabalizing, thats also a weak argument. I once asked a K-mart manager if he was concerned about a new Target opening up nearby. He said he was excited as hell. They do excellent site research, advertise a lot and wherever we are near one, our store shows consistently increasing sales. The synergy of pumping more capital into an area and seeing it create more sales for everyone else is well known. That is why a shopping center always wants a visible, active anchor who spends money to bring in customers. All the little stores want to coat tail.

It may be counter-intuitive but no mystery to those involved.

How many K-marts have closed their doors in Tulsa? Too easy.

That's your problem AA. You always think things are easy. Try to camouflage your lack of knowledge with more clever one liners. Its not the players doofus (K-Mart) its the concept of synergy. Players in retail come and go. Visit 21st and Yale and watch how that synergy put a Target, a Sears and Gordmans all in one strip.

And THERE is the problem with your analogy, Waterboy.  They want the synergy from being in the same strip (and thus the various businesses in Tulsa Landing will love the fact that they are all located on the same parking lot in a pedestrian friendly environment, creating synergy.  They are NOT much interested in being 2 1/2 miles and across a river from other similar establishments.  There is no synergy in such an arrangement.

I'm not sure who "they" is. What I was trying to show is that development in general feeds off of itself. So in my mind, when a new area like Pearl starts to germinate, it can only have positive impact on the city as the city gains cred, if you will, for being a growing city with many choices. The pie tends to get bigger.

Whether that transfers to loft housing is not certain to me but makes sense. Having more than one choice, downtown, would seem to create more buzz among that demo.

When Woodland Hills opened many felt it would suck the life right out of 41st and Yale. But it didn't as they remodeled, re-targeted and found counter puncher retail to come in, thus we got two shopping areas instead of one.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital
You may be right.  I just don't think there's enough to create enough critical mass in 2 or more areas to really attain that urban energy we're hoping for.  

And you completely lost me  when you started adding together the populations of Tulsa, OKC, Wichita, Springfield, Joplin, Northwest Arkansas and Fort Smith.  Few things could be less relevant.  First, I'm not buying that the Tulsa Landing, or any collection of Tulsa Landings, downtown lofts, and iconic arenas are going to cause any significant number of people from those cities and areas to move to Tulsa.  ESPECIALLY since most of them are either doing similar things or are years ahead of Tulsa in this sort of development.  Rein in the expectations a bit...   ;-)

I don't see how any of the areas I mentioned, except for OKC, are ahead of Tulsa in urban development.  There are other cities Tulsa's size and smaller whose urban areas are becoming more and more vibrant every day.  Look into Little Rock, Omaha, or Albuquerque if you don't believe me.  And you're right, the urban lofts, river development, and iconic architecture will not bring in the young professional masses alone.  That's just the product focus.  There has to be a market focus also.  The young professional masses will come when Tulsa is perceived as a vibrant urban city by both residents and visitors.  It's not just the products themselves that make people want to buy them, it's the perceived value they carry, and the perceived benefit they provide the customer.    No matter how special the product you're selling actually is, all that matters is that it's special in the mind of the buyer.  The river infrastructure will provide a better product that will then have to be marketed.  Except for OKC, the metro areas I mentioned are largely lacking in urban development, and the perceived urban lifestyle.  Hello, target market for Tulsa!