The New Tulsa Landing (if the river vote passes)

[carltonplace]

Question, does the TDA have the ability or the money to buy the west bank and sell/lease it to Tulsa Landing. Is there any way to save this project? Based on the precinct map people near the river support river development and would likely frequent water front endeavors. I'm betting that people from the No precincts would visit as well, but don't want to pay for it.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

Question, does the TDA have the ability or the money to buy the west bank and sell/lease it to Tulsa Landing. Is there any way to save this project? Based on the precinct map people near the river support river development and would likely frequent water front endeavors. I'm betting that people from the No precincts would visit as well, but don't want to pay for it.

Hardesty could donate his property to the city who could then give the whole area they need to the developer.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

oh well, got some more dirt on the "stadium"...

Could you cut me a piece of that pie?!?  []

After the narrow defeat of the River Tax on a countywide vote, maybe it's time to take a closer look at the options for this mysterious "22,000 seat baseball stadium on the Arkansas River"...

I already posted this link on another thread, but it may be more appropriate here... Portland's PGE Park, MLS and a new minor league ballpark...
http://wweek.com/editorial/3351/9893/

quote:MLS wants its teams to play in soccer-specific venues, and those don't work with baseball teams. The fields are drastically different shapes, plus baseball and soccer present scheduling conflicts with overlapping seasons.

Paulson says MLS can tolerate a few years of the Beavers sharing PGE Park with a soccer team, but that ultimately the league wants a commitment that the Beavers will go and seating will be added in what's now left field.

Unfortunately for Tulsa, stadium deals in KC and St Louis seem to be progressing-- there's just no way I can see that MLS would expand to Tulsa if teams already exist in KC, StLouis, Dallas and Houston...
http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/350874.html

quote:A sweeping redevelopment plan that includes replacing the closed Bannister Mall with a soccer stadium for the Kansas City Wizards was endorsed today by a city development agency.

The Kansas City Tax Increment Financing Commission voted unanimously to recommend approval for the Three Trails District TIF Plan being proposed by Lane4 Property Group in cooperation with the Wizards. The project calls for construction of an 18,500-seat stadium near Interstate 435 where the mall now stands.

"This is an opportunity to change this area from a field of despair to a field of dreams, soccer dreams," said Kansas City Councilwoman Cathy Jolly, whose district includes the Bannister Mall area.

In addition to the stadium, the first phase of the project includes a 250-room hotel, 609,000 square feet of retail space and 610,500 square feet of office. The entire development, when fully developed over 10 years, will add more retail and office space, cost an estimated $943 million and create more than 6,500 full- and part-time jobs, according to the developer.

The TIF Commission endorsed the developer's request for $267 million in tax incentives, about 29 percent of the cost, to help the project. They include so-called Super TIF and state tax-increment financing assistance.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2007/09/10/daily21.html

quote:The five-man Collinsville City Council approved Monday night a pre-annexation agreement between the city and St. Louis Soccer United, which will help fund a soccer stadium and mixed-use development in hopes of attracting a Major League Soccer franchise to the city for the 2009 season.

The pre-annexation agreement calls for Collinsville and St. Louis Soccer United to begin negotiations for annexation of portions of the planned site not currently within city limits, to rezone the property as a planned unit development and begin the tax increment financing process. It also extends an enterprise zone to the area.

"Collinsville believes in the positive economic and emotional impact a Major League Soccer franchise and world-class surrounding development can have on a community and its citizens," St. Louis Soccer United Chairman Jeff Cooper said in a statement.

In addition to the 18,500-seat soccer stadium and adjacent retail/office complex of more than 300,000 square feet, this project also includes two 120-room hotels, residential housing, and a versatile stage area to allow other events at the stadium.

And a couple of comments from Peter Wilt, the point man for MLS in Milwaukee...

"I've been taught never to say never, but i think the best chance now is to steal an existing team that's struggling in the future...and that's hard/impossible to do without a stadium or stadium plan in place."

"We never did get a potential owner with financial viability to the stage where we could present a viable plan to MLS."

"In the last two years, MLS has turned 180 degrees from a buyers market to a sellers market. If we had gotten to that stage two years ago, i believe we would've been approved. Now, i'm not so sure. Market size, however, is NOT what's preventing Milwaukee from getting an MLS team right now. It's lack of a stadium and owner."

So, the folks from Branson have few options... they could go the route of USL1 and look at a smaller stadium... but Seattle's USL owner Adrian Hanauer kind of let it slip recently that his team was losing $300,000 a year playing in that league... they might want to speak with Rochester, NY people about a USL team, since they seem to be the ones running in the black...

...or, they could take a chance and go ahead full press for the 20k-22k seat stadium and look at it from the same kind of standpoint seen in Springfield, MO's quest to get a Texas League baseball team... build it first and...

That'd be a really gutsy call, but may have the best chance at success...

Then there's the pesky land acquisition since the River Tax didn't pass...

Yawn.  And so it goes... or doesn't go...

Mmm.  Good pie.  []

[Conan71]

Take heart in this Ruf:  The rendering of the stadium was south of the bridge.  That's property the city already owns, not subject to massive greed by the owner of the concrete plant.  Stick a stadium there and I think someone would step up to develop north of that.

With Wally World saying no thanks on the east end sure makes it look like the Drillers are headed to Jenks.  Maybe someone could step up and build a multi-use stadium at 23rd & Jackson.

Maybe Recyclemichael could organize an aluminum can campaign to pay for it.

[bacjz00]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

With Wally World saying no thanks on the east end sure makes it look like the Drillers are headed to Jenks.

Just so I understand...you're saying that the Drillers coming to downtown somehow HINGED on Wal-Mart building a store nearby??  I guess I don't follow your logic.  

From what I see, that land is now available for development possibilities again and most are in favor of seeing Tulsa's team play IN Tulsa.  Maybe a stadium DOESN'T get built there, but if it's because the Wal-Mart pulled out...we really are a worthless city.

[Conan71]

I may have developments and developers mixed up, but my understanding was that Seay's group was depending heavily on Wal-Mart anchoring the development plan they had.  Just assuming that there was going to be a TIF district in that area which would help pay for the stadium.

Parking lots and no or very limited retail just doesn't raise a whole lot of money in a TIF, a baseball stadium sure wouldn't raise much.  

If you get a large anchor with $$$ that tends to attract others to develop.  Rarely works the other way around these days.

I just think with the Drillers already having a "letter of intent" with Jenks and now Wal-Mart backs out, it's not looking all that great for downtown to get the Drillers.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I may have developments and developers mixed up, but my understanding was that Seay's group was depending heavily on Wal-Mart anchoring the development plan they had.  Just assuming that there was going to be a TIF district in that area which would help pay for the stadium.

Parking lots and no or very limited retail just doesn't raise a whole lot of money in a TIF, a baseball stadium sure wouldn't raise much.  

If you get a large anchor with $$$ that tends to attract others to develop.  Rarely works the other way around these days.

I just think with the Drillers already having a "letter of intent" with Jenks and now Wal-Mart backs out, it's not looking all that great for downtown to get the Drillers.

You are a bit confused.

Global Development of Washington DC was (hopefully now is?) going to build the "East End". They had a letter of intent to buy the Nordam land in the eastern part of downtown along with a number of other plots. The center piece of the development was a baseball stadium to be built on the Nordam land. Global was going to ask for a TIF and was rumored to have Target in the mix for the development.

Global was able to close on some of the smaller plots but had a cash crunch and were delayed in closing on Nordam. Nordam broke the letter of intent and went with The Seay Group of Arkansas and a developer from Claremore just as Global was finally able to raise the cash to close. Nordam sold to Seay and Co instead who were in with Wal-Mart. They also wanted a TIF to fund some condos and an "urban" Wal-Mart. No Stadium as part of the development. The city may have been able to expand the TIF to fund a baseball stadium themselves on city owned land on 2nd, but that was not part of the development.

Hopefully the city can bring Seay and Global together as they now own most of the eastern section of downtown and together they can build some version of the "East End" and include a baseball stadium as the center piece as Global intended.

[Conan71]

Thank you for the clarification Swake.

There have been so many different announcements/rumors from/about Global, Heavenly Hospitality, Seay, etc. that it's hard to keep it all straight.

Something needs to happen with other development for a TIF to work in that area.

I'm waiting for some nut-job parking lot/vacant lot preservation group to try and put the brakes on developing the east end. [xx(]

I think KOTV's move is a big deal.  They will bring a presence to the Brady District and will free up their studio space on Frankfort for something else.

[TheArtist]

Yes and with the city now leaving its building over there, there is plenty of room. My guess is that the Seay group will try to bring in some other development other than the wal-mart. They invested a lot to just let the whole deal go too easily. Plus they had plans for the apartments. Frankly I did not like the layout of the apartments either so I would rather them just back out and sell to Global. I wonder if Global is still even interested at this point?

I just wonder how long this soap opera is going to go on?

[Conan71]

Whispers are starting about the next recession.  I can only wonder if that is why Wal-Mart is showing some caution on their Supercenter developments right now.  That and forecasts for higher oil and gas prices.

I believe I remember hearing when gas prices soared in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Wal-Mart's same-unit sales ranged from flat to down and their analysts blamed it on people needing to spend more disposable income on gasoline.

I could be way off-base on that but those folks at Wal-Mart know their business pretty well and dropping some Supercenters makes me think they are anticipating some factors out of their control which could affect sales, profits, and growth in the next few years.

[cannon_fodder]

Someone is always calling for the next recession.  High oil, weak dollar, losing markets.  So long as the economy keeps creating jobs the impact will be minimalized.  Most of it is long in coming.

- We knew we had a housing bubble
- We knew many stocks were AGAIN over priced
- We knew the dollar was over valued
- We have known for decades that our reliance on oil would bite us in the donkey

All came true and we are shocked.  SHOCKED I tell you.

/will save rant for appropriate thread.  Sorry.

[rwarn17588]

Conan wrote:

Whispers are starting about the next recession. I can only wonder if that is why Wal-Mart is showing some caution on their Supercenter developments right now. That and forecasts for higher oil and gas prices.

I could be way off-base on that but those folks at Wal-Mart know their business pretty well and dropping some Supercenters makes me think they are anticipating some factors out of their control which could affect sales, profits, and growth in the next few years.

<end clip>

It's a bit more complicated than that.

I've observed Wal-Mart for years, and it's been struggling to meet profit forecasts in recent years, even before the housing problems hit. Wal-Mart is hampered by market oversaturation and stiff competition from Costco and Target. I didn't find their announcement about cutting back on Supercenters as all that surprising, given the other factors that I've mentioned.

I don't think there's going to be a recession. Remember, a recession means two straight quarters of negative GNP. Growth will certainly slow, but we're a long way from a true recession.

Those people who are cry "recession" all the time are the ones trying to unload gold stocks and other crap.

[Conan71]

I'm rather skeptical of another recession myself, but all it takes is talk of a recession to get companies to start pulling in their oars, freeze hiring, slow down or freeze expansion, consumption slows down, etc. and a recession will happen.

[cannon_fodder]

Keep in mind the guy that is being cited over and over on the recession made his bank shorting stocks in the 1980's and doing the same on junk bonds in the early 1990's.  BY his own account he stands to make BBBBBillions if the economy tanks on his short and contrarian positions.  Likewise, the credit crunch lines his pockets as junk bonds default.

Him telling you the economy will tank is like Warren Buffet telling you Berkshire Hathaway rules.

[TheArtist]

I dont know if there is going to be a recession. If there is one I dont think it will be that severe. But its often the fear itself that will crimp some areas economies.

When things are looking up, taking a risk on an area like downtown Tulsa is not so bad. But when an area is already struggling to find its footing, to go in when things are indeed faltering, regardless of the reason, its, well not the time to do that. Downtown Tulsa is already a tricky proposition even when your thinking the economy is doing well and will likely go up. But when the national economy is slow and showing signs of weakness, going into an already weak situation sounds kind of stupid frankly. I dont know if the lenders will want to take those risks.

I just hope the small amount of growth we have seen in retail, restaurants, etc, downtown are able to hang in there and weather this.

By the middle of next spring I think we will definitely have a better feel for how all of this current economic uncertainty and weakness is going affect Tulsa.

I currently think that some sort of large development by the river is our best bet. It may take a while for the property owners and developers to sort things out. Course unless the city or whoever doesnt get on the ball with the river development we may lose that opportunity as well depending on how the economy does.