Hooray -- Money doesn't buy everything !!!!!

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by nuclear_2525

I'd like to add as well, that I am a born Tulsa boy and in college at OU.  I was really excited about this vote, as well as most of my friends who are also from Tulsa.  I think the impact of the 'No' vote goes far beyond tax dollars.

I won't be coming back, and neither are any of my friends.  OKC just passed an additional 280 million in school funding after passing 750 million just a few years ago.  

My money and I, are staying in OKC.

A whole passel of myself and my Cascia buddies said the same thing roughly 20 years ago.  Guess what, about 80% of us eventually returned.

[cks511]

I returned here 2.5 years ago after living in Indy for 20 years. Many of my Memorial buddies have the same story.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by nuclear_2525

I'd like to add as well, that I am a born Tulsa boy and in college at OU.  I was really excited about this vote, as well as most of my friends who are also from Tulsa.  I think the impact of the 'No' vote goes far beyond tax dollars.

I won't be coming back, and neither are any of my friends.  OKC just passed an additional 280 million in school funding after passing 750 million just a few years ago.  

My money and I, are staying in OKC.

A whole passel of myself and my Cascia buddies said the same thing roughly 20 years ago.  Guess what, about 80% of us eventually returned.

Yup, I'm a BTW kid who will be back withing 15 yrs of leaving.  Still, would be good to cut that window to 5-10 from 15-20.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Our hatred and protest needs to be directed at Oklahoma City where it belongs.  The State of Oklahoma is taking 4.5 cents of sales tax, which is the ONLY way municipalities are allowed to raise funding for improvements.  Revenues for the state are at an all time high.  Meanwhile Tulsa and smaller communities are faltering while OKC politicians hoarde all of the money in the capitol.  They even reduced the income tax recently because they thought they had TOO MUCH MONEY.  We need to reduce, or outright REMOVE the state sales tax.  If the state will not send us any of our money back, then we need to be ALLOWED to spend as much of our OWN money on OURSELVES as neccesary.  Basic city functions of Tulsa are already to the point that they need another penny of operating revenue.  This is just for police, fire, parks, basic services like mowing ROWs, etc.  This is before streets and development opportunities are even considered.  This is why we are making desperation maneuvers like annexing the fairgrounds.  Reducing state sales tax is our best chance of ever getting all the things we need done locally funded.

OKC and Jenks are doing well with the same amount of state sales tax. Sure I wouldnt complain if the state lowered its sales tax and would be willing to try and do something about it, but that will be less likely to happen than this river plan.

I am sure there are all kinds of ideas. But what is likely to happen is a whole different story.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Our hatred and protest needs to be directed at Oklahoma City where it belongs.  The State of Oklahoma is taking 4.5 cents of sales tax, which is the ONLY way municipalities are allowed to raise funding for improvements.  Revenues for the state are at an all time high.  Meanwhile Tulsa and smaller communities are faltering while OKC politicians hoarde all of the money in the capitol.  They even reduced the income tax recently because they thought they had TOO MUCH MONEY.  We need to reduce, or outright REMOVE the state sales tax.  If the state will not send us any of our money back, then we need to be ALLOWED to spend as much of our OWN money on OURSELVES as neccesary.  Basic city functions of Tulsa are already to the point that they need another penny of operating revenue.  This is just for police, fire, parks, basic services like mowing ROWs, etc.  This is before streets and development opportunities are even considered.  This is why we are making desperation maneuvers like annexing the fairgrounds.  Reducing state sales tax is our best chance of ever getting all the things we need done locally funded.

OKC and Jenks are doing well with the same amount of state sales tax. Sure I wouldnt complain if the state lowered its sales tax and would be willing to try and do something about it, but that will be less likely to happen than this river plan.

I am sure there are all kinds of ideas. But what is likely to happen is a whole different story.

Tulsa is in a different position, possibly the worst off in the state.  Jenks is a growing city which gets to write TIFs to build developments that pull in NEW tax dollars.  No budget crisis for them.  Oklahoma City benefits from all of the state tax dollars.  They even get to hoarde federal money by being the ones deciding where it goes.  Transportation dollars get spent on big projects in OKC while our bridges in Tulsa are close to collapse.  OKC gets thousands of well paying government jobs.  Tulsa gets nothing.  All we do is send our money away to them.

And despite all that, would you really call OKC nicer than Tulsa?  I hope it hasn't reached that point

[USRufnex]

Returned here almost a year ago after living in Chicago most of the past 17 years (also lived in Indy, Boston and Denver)...

Lived in Tulsa a year back in 2001 and was pleasantly surprised... Vision2025 was a positive factor but not a deciding factor in whether to move back...

Seriously looked at moving to Rochester, NY, Indy and Grand Rapids, MI before deciding on Tulsa... could move onto OKC but job seems to be going well so far... like seeing revitalized areas of Tulsa like Kendall-Whittier and Owen Park... enjoy Brady and Blue Dome but am also very impressed with Jenks' Riverwalk...

And I distrust Tulsa's "naysayers" and "aginners" more than I do the midtown or southern hills "elite"... although I find all those groups disfunctional...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

The vote made me feel great knowing I definitely did not stand alone in the minority when it concerned getting our act together on other issues.  When Tulsa gets its grass mowed and streets repaired along with a few other issues to where at least they are not abysmal, then I will consider saying YES.  

I for one have never been against any of those things and have always been willing to pay for it. I dont think most of the people who voted yes would be against any of those things. Even if where they live the roads are fine and its to help the poorer sections of the city. If thats some peoples priority, then go for it I will help you pay for it even though you dont give a dang about what people like me want.

But as you continue to only do what you want you may find you will end up with less wealthy people. Thus more of the burden will end up having to be paid for by poor people, and so the spiral downward will go. Your going to have the same amount of roads, possibly more police and worse schools, to pay for whether its just poor people trying to shoulder more and more of the load or wealthier people spending more and helping.

Its like those people in North Tulsa. Who is going to pay for the majority of the roads and police, healthcare, etc? They dont make and spend enough money to do it. Whats going to happen if more and more of the city becomes that way. We are going to be more like Detroit ( They lost the auto industry, we lost oil, nice suburbs but dont go near the inner city) than SanAntonio or Memphis lol.

Money doesnt buy everything!!!! but it will sure help pay for those roads, schools, police and other things some keep crying about.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

I'm curious how many "no voters" voted against The Channels yesterday.

Probably about as many who voted "yes" for The Channels yesterday.  It was all smoke and mirrors and it just got out of hand.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

The vote made me feel great knowing I definitely did not stand alone in the minority when it concerned getting our act together on other issues.  When Tulsa gets its grass mowed and streets repaired along with a few other issues to where at least they are not abysmal, then I will consider saying YES.  

Its like those people in North Tulsa. Who is going to pay for the majority of the roads and police, healthcare, etc? They dont make and spend enough money to do it. Whats going to happen if more and more of the city becomes that way. We are going to be more like Detroit than SanAntonio or Memphis lol.

What would be a REAL solution for North Tulsa though?  Im seeing this reaction today, basically saying North Tulsa needs to shut up or get nothing at all.  Instead of just saying screw them, they dont make any money, the question needs to be why are they in that position to begin with?  How do we improve education, and how do we get local, neighborhood jobs that will give opportunity to people who feel trapped.

[Double A]

quote:  If not, I pray that someone credible will run against them.

I bet your prayers will be answered.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Our hatred and protest needs to be directed at Oklahoma City where it belongs.  The State of Oklahoma is taking 4.5 cents of sales tax, which is the ONLY way municipalities are allowed to raise funding for improvements.  Revenues for the state are at an all time high.  Meanwhile Tulsa and smaller communities are faltering while OKC politicians hoarde all of the money in the capitol.  They even reduced the income tax recently because they thought they had TOO MUCH MONEY.  We need to reduce, or outright REMOVE the state sales tax.  If the state will not send us any of our money back, then we need to be ALLOWED to spend as much of our OWN money on OURSELVES as neccesary.  Basic city functions of Tulsa are already to the point that they need another penny of operating revenue.  This is just for police, fire, parks, basic services like mowing ROWs, etc.  This is before streets and development opportunities are even considered.  This is why we are making desperation maneuvers like annexing the fairgrounds.  Reducing state sales tax is our best chance of ever getting all the things we need done locally funded.

Bingo, we have a winner! For those of you lamenting the defeat of this tax and longing for river development, I suggest  you contact all the state and federal elected officials that endorsed this tax and seek funding from them. Better yet, why not have a public fundraising campaign to solicit voluntary contributions for river development from across the community to be matched by the private donors in this tax, like Zarrow did for the schools? Take your lemon and make lemonade.

[Rose]

Young Tulsan, I'm with you on that.  It's sad that north Tulsans felt "No" was the answer.  The problem (education, jobs, extreme poverty, etc.)is so deep rooted.  Unfortunately, too many people are short-sighted and don't want to see how desperate the situation in the poorer areas of town are.  It's a shame that the river tax and those issues were mixed together in the minds of the north Tulsa community.  I wish we won for the river and I wish we could also address the needs of the less fortunate.

[Tony]

I have been coming to Tulsa since 1974 -- I never came or shopped here just because it was Tulsa, but rather I came/come for the EXCELLENT seasonal fishing that the Arkansas river in and around Tulsa affords (and the good Mexican food) -- I spend an average of 250.00 everytime I come to Tulsa (once every month-every year) for a business meeting -- I have remained firm and will continue to do so in OPPOSITION to additional damming just for Aesthetics in the river. I also realize I am in a minority when it comes to the Wildlife Resources available to downtown Tulsans. Unlike many of you who post on here I am actually a user of the RESOURCE here in Tulsa. I can show you at least 20 dump sites from Sand Springs to the Waggoner county line that it would be great to clean up -- they are an EYESORE -- to make it perfectly clear I would have loved to see monies directed toward cleaning up the bank dumping sites , build pedestrian trails, restrooms, parks, but my sticking point is and will always be the proposed dams - Zink was terrible for the river and any further dams WILL ultimately destroy the fishery that EXISTS thru Tulsa - that is a fact backed by about 70 years of study of comparable rivers and also pointed out by Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation BEFORE the vote. We may agree on a lot of things as far as developing the area -- just remember that greenspace thru town is used by more than just Tulsa residents --

Tony (Stillwater)
Oklahoma Striped Bass Association
Tulsa Oklahoma

[Tiny]

I'm not sure how you thought this river tax would improve tulsa to the point that it'd cause people to move there ... low wages ... high cost of living are your main problems in that dept ... if cost of living was lower and wages were a lot better I could see people wanting to move there ... not because they got a dandy new park and sewer ponds to jog around.

My son worked in Broken Arrow for paragon films for a fairly low wage and he couldn't afford to live in tulsa or broken arrow so he commuted from Mannford which is a pretty long drive every morning and that's probably what most of tulsa's work force does just because they can't afford housing or rent in the city itself which would save them a lot of money if they could actually afford to live there.

A river park isn't going to fix these things or even be associated with drawing folks to tulsa in any kind of numbers ... Living in tulsa would be, to me, a dead end road with no place to turn around so why head down that road if I know I"m going to have to back my way back out of there as carefully as I can so that I don't end up in worse shape than I already am ... one mistake and I'm in a ditch and stuck there for the rest of my life with no options to get out of the mess I'm in without I just grab my stuff and abandon anything I can't carry out and walk ... only way I could live in tulsa is if I won the lottery and then that wouldn't be anywhere near my first choice ... in fact it would be my last choice in places to move to .... you think a riverpark might be something that would change my mind?

Tim Smith (Drumright, OK)
www.catfishing.tv
www.catfishin.net

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Rose

Young Tulsan, I'm with you on that.  It's sad that north Tulsans felt "No" was the answer.  The problem (education, jobs, extreme poverty, etc.)is so deep rooted.  Unfortunately, too many people are short-sighted and don't want to see how desperate the situation in the poorer areas of town are.  It's a shame that the river tax and those issues were mixed together in the minds of the north Tulsa community.  I wish we won for the river and I wish we could also address the needs of the less fortunate.

I think north Tulsa is tired of the "Southern Hills/Utica Square" folk constantly telling them they know what's best for their community and understand all about north Tulsa because they have kids at BTW.  (Okay a bit of hyperbole there.)

The south side really should consider more about what the north side needs within their community, not five or ten miles from it.  My family owned a business up near Pine & Utica in the mid/late '80's.  I'm impressed with how much the area has improved further west on Peoria.  Progress is happening, they have a vibrant new industrial park, a new YMCA going up, better streets, better housing development.  It's coming along but it's still far behind the attention the south side has gotten.

They could have gained a ton more credibility from the start if they just would have said there is a $122mm private gift, $5mm of which will go to park and pool improvements, a large percentage which will be aimed at north Tulsa.  Instead, they got an after-thought gift in the last two weeks of a 9 week campaign.  That smacked of outright voter bribery to those people and to others.