More allegations against the Roberts

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by patric

It may be another "I have sinned" moment.



The eyes of the Tabloids are upon us...

"So what was 'Little Jimmy' doing out of his pulpit?"

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Except the private companies are not doing so under the guide of helping the poor or serving god.  And they pay taxes on it.  THATS the difference.  If Dick Roberts said "give me money so I can live phat!" and people saw fit to do so I would only me mildly annoyed (see Paris Hilton).

Agreed, though there's countless instances of tax fraud going on with a lot of the "perks" that come along with owning a for profit business.  

Not saying it in defense of Brother Roberts, just saying this is nothing new, especially in the realm of televangelists.  That's why it doesn't even take one finger for me to count the number of contributions I've made to TV ministries.

[citizen72]

Now, Oral Roberts is living in Palm Springs. Is there something wrong with this picture? I always heard he was a poor man!

No, it is just the way of the leech.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by citizen72

Now, Oral Roberts is living in Palm Springs. Is there something wrong with this picture? I always heard he was a poor man!

No, it is just the way of the leech.

Newport Beach.  Prolly costs even more to live there.

[citizen72]

Actually Conan I did not know about Newport Beach, but I am aware he has a home in Palm Springs valued at around $ 600,000 and a home in a secure development in Beverly Hills that is valued at around $ 2,000,000. The Beverly Hills home was purchased for him by ORU and there you go again.

He certainly has never been a Mother Marisa. Wasn't her personal vow Charity chastity and poverty to the glory of God? Seems Oral might have some explaining to do at the big gate.

[Rowdy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Not Christian, not subject to judge not.  

With that cleared up, I know for a fact he is guilty of living a lavish lifestyle off of other people's tithing.   I know that his ministries are used for the enrichment of his other family members (cue daughters salaries).  I know that his wife's closet is half the size of my house (per her Larry king discussion).   I'm not accusing anyone of such things, its a readily known and admitted fact.

I don't know if he has crossed the line into criminal fraud.  I don't know if his tithers realizes or care about his lifestyle.  But it offends me that someone serving god lives in a manner that could sustain an entire town of the poor such tax exempt ministries are supposed to support.

and you can keep your pity party for everyone picking on the poor Christians.  I don't care what religion you are nor what your belief system is.  But when it becomes a matter of public inquiry I have a right to poke my head up there and see what's going on.  When it effects public institutions (creationism at zoo), the tax code (Roberts), or the nation as a whole (the jerk from Kansas protesting soldiers funerals) it will and should generate discussion.  I'd do the same thing if it were a Hindu Temple, a Jewish Synagogue, a Mosques, Mormo,. a gaggle of Krishna's, Zoroastrian, or even a Scientologist (ok, maybe I'd have to mock a Scientologist a little for the belief in Lord Helatrobus who killed the evil aliens in a volcano filled with nuclear weapons).  

Then again, your complaint is a self fulfilled prophecy.  You complained about being persecuted and now you have.  

quote:Rowdy wrote
Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought.
. . .
typical banter of a misinformed and quite ignorant human being

How very Christ like to call me stupid for expressing my beliefs and opinions when they differ from yours.  Truly the enlightened and high road is to conform to your belief system lest I be stupid.  In fact, Jesus himself told the children of Israel as he hung from the cross " Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought."  Thank for for showing me how to be a better person, understand, forgive, and not cast stones.

and, for the record... I believe you should re-read Ed's post.

Let's see, I made a handful of posts stating that the guy should be proven guilty in a court of law. I then stated that the attitude here is blood-thirsty towards a generalized grouping of people-in this case Christians.  I don't believe I am wrong in that fact or I could copy and paste quotes galore backing that up.

So that concludes with me being the guilty party.  For what, getting people to stop the generalities of certain religions and let the legal system do its job?  Please. If I had taken your road, I would just swim downstream with the lot of you and state "Yeah he deserves everything he gets! Lets lynch all the Christians!"  

Excuse me for not drooling over trying to find everyone who claims to be a Christian and try in vain to ripping them a new one.

[Rowdy]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

^agreed

Rowdy, you stated your side poorly

Townsend.  I stated what I stated in clear English. Therefore, I made my point and wouldn't change one word.  I could care less of your critique.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by patric

It may be another "I have sinned" moment.



The eyes of the Tabloids are upon us...

"So what was 'Little Jimmy' doing out of his pulpit?"

Yes, the late Phil Hartman: nobody did it better!

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

^agreed

Rowdy, you stated your side poorly

Townsend.  I stated what I stated in clear English. Therefore, I made my point and wouldn't change one word.  I could care less of your critique.

You could?

[Rowdy]

Yeah.  If I cared, I would probably post a paragraph or two in regards to your reply.  Heck, I'm probably breaking one of your records now by posting a reply that is longer than a sentence.

[Rowdy]

I thought about sticking around for a bit for a few more days to defend or readdress but realized it's pointless around here and I would rather not waste my time any further so I will just say my peace and be gone.  I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.  

I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it). Being judgmental on my part would be "Fry the guy, he's guilty of it all! I just knew he was screwed up like his father!"  I'll agree to disagree.

Anyway, enjoy the forums. I no longer enjoy seeing the same 25 in here anymore. Two years has been way long enough for me.  I have enjoyed the forums for some good information and a few insightful posts.  I have appreciated the time here and I won't let the door hit me on the way out! []

[tim huntzinger]

So, should all ministers and clerics take vows of poverty?  These are people who preach a prosperity message, so we should be surprised that they live what they preach?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

So, should all ministers and clerics take vows of poverty?  These are people who preach a prosperity message, so we should be surprised that they live what they preach?

No, I believe it boils down to a preacher's own humility and conscience.  Something which, on the surface, seems to be lacking within the Roberts compound- based on allegations in this suit.

Since I've not been through a divinity school, a Bible school like Rhema, and have never served on the board of a church, I really don't know the business end of religion.  

I don't know if there is a percent which is considered acceptible for a pastor to take as salary, or how that works.  I imagine in a lot of denominaitonal protestant churches there is some sort of pay scale from the diocese (or what ever their governing system may be) based on revenue or number of regular donating members, or a set salary approved by the church board.

I've worked either straight commission or salary/bonus for close to the last 20 years.  My personal compensation paradigm tells me that a set percentage of the total revenues would be acceptible as a pastor.  

Personal conscience would dictate to me to not assume a mode of living that is vastly beyond the majority of my flock if I were being supported with voluntary donations.  Not everyone is possessed of that sort of thinking, though.  I could see where it would show humilty as a church grew more prosperous, to cut the percentage a pastor takes as his own and divert more to missions work or community outreach.

I dunno, just my rambling thoughts.  I drive a nine-year old truck because I like it and live in a modest house.  I live a fairly simple life and have enough left over for a few toys and a couple of nice vacations a year and I should be able to get both my daughters through college without much debt, all the while not planning on depending on Social Security when I retire.  I got all my needs taken care of and most all my wants.  That's all that matters to me.  

I don't be-grudge anyone else who out-earns me and feels the need to have a mansion and a $75K car- that's their business.  When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others to build their own wealth that it starts to stick in my craw.

[Porky]

What I can't figure out is where Stephanie Cantees has been at. Has anyone heard her say anything at all?

[restored2x]

"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."

I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.

A percentage of what comes in is OK up to a certain point. If it's 10% - and the University and ministry together pull in 60 million - that's 6 million dollars. That is excessive, in my opinion. A small church that does the same and pulls in $60,000 in donations only pays the minister $6,000 - not a liveable salary here. If that church grows, where is the cut-off point?

The real point is not even that - the real point is about true accountability. Who actually "owns" the ministry? Who makes these decisions? A "family-owned-ministry" is a dangerous thing. How can anyone expect something different? I have seen this over and over for more than 30 years in ministries. Many larger family-owned-ministries have puppet boards. The board has no real authority, only responsibility. The position is one of prestige, that can be taken away if one's actions or attitudes cause the "prophet" or his family to look bad. Loyalty is expected and anything less is punished. The corprate culture is very different from a secular business, and it is that cult of personality that can eventually topple these kinds of organizations.

Many of these extravagances and "crazy-to-the-normal-guy" things are IMHO, the result and fruit of bad theology. The theology sells and is easily packaged and marketed - and that is our culture's definition of success.

The ministry or church becomes a giant machine that eats money and craps money. Much of the money is spent making more money - and very little actually goes into the mission and purpose the thing was originally organized to do. Since most of the energy is expended on making and crapping money - money becomes paramount.

Go to one of these giant churches or ministries and ask to speak to the leader. He is not available. Go and knock on the door and say you need to speak to the "big guy" because your kid is on drugs and you need prayer. Chances are, you ain't gonna see the big guy - maybe one of the under-pastors who just graduated from Bible School will see you. Next month, go in and show the secretary a check for $25,000 and ask to see the big guy. Different results. Why? Money talks and BS (people in need) walks. The mission has been eaten up by the money monster.

I could go on and on - but I won't. This is nothing new. This is why people are so hateful of "organized" religion. Most are not ranting against God - they are ranting against the machine that has has sat down on the throne in many churches and ministries.

I wish the University and the Robertses the best. This may prove to be a blessing in disguise. The monster can only be killed when we stop feeding it.