More allegations against the Roberts

[restored2x]

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

I thought about sticking around for a bit for a few more days to defend or readdress but realized it's pointless around here and I would rather not waste my time any further so I will just say my peace and be gone.  I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.  

I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it). Being judgmental on my part would be "Fry the guy, he's guilty of it all! I just knew he was screwed up like his father!"  I'll agree to disagree.

Anyway, enjoy the forums. I no longer enjoy seeing the same 25 in here anymore. Two years has been way long enough for me.  I have enjoyed the forums for some good information and a few insightful posts.  I have appreciated the time here and I won't let the door hit me on the way out! []

I really hope you don't go - your input is needed and welcome - at least to me. I'm sure others were following your posts and even agree with much of what you say. In my short time here, I've been personally attacked and insulted (and that was with people I was agreeing with) - and seriously thought about leaving the fools behind. But, this forum serves a good purpose, and the mods step in when someone crosses the line most of the time.

I hope you keep posting. Your opinion counts, Rowdy.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by restored2x

"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."

I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.

This is how I'm characterizing self-denial and sacrifice, I might not be attaching the proper words to the notion I'm trying to convey:  "Send your seed faith money.  God tells us to give and have faith and you will prosper."  People sacrificing 10% of a meager fixed income instead of spending it on heat, electricity, rent, or food staples.  

Certainly not everyone who gives to ORM is in those financial circumstances, but the message definitely is geared at people who are struggling when you start talking about seed faith.  

One thing which has turned me off on religion is when they feel the need to explain my financial obligations to God for two or three minutes prior to passing the plate.  I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [!]

Thanks for the explaination on finances.  I agree, what about the ministry which brings in $60mm a year?  Chances are that in order for a ministry to grow to that point someone would have become such a megalomaniac at that point he/she likely isn't going to have a concept of how much is enough.

[restored2x]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by restored2x

"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."

I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.

This is how I'm characterizing self-denial and sacrifice, I might not be attaching the proper words to the notion I'm trying to convey:  "Send your seed faith money.  God tells us to give and have faith and you will prosper."  People sacrificing 10% of a meager fixed income instead of spending it on heat, electricity, rent, or food staples.  

Certainly not everyone who gives to ORM is in those financial circumstances, but the message definitely is geared at people who are struggling when you start talking about seed faith.  

One thing which has turned me off on religion is when they feel the need to explain my financial obligations to God for two or three minutes prior to passing the plate.  I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [!]

Thanks for the explaination on finances.  I agree, what about the ministry which brings in $60mm a year?  Chances are that in order for a ministry to grow to that point someone would have become such a megalomaniac at that point he/she likely isn't going to have a concept of how much is enough.

Now I see what you meant.

Boy, I love your explanation about offerings-
"I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [!]"
Can I use that at church on Sunday? Our people would genuinely enjoy that quote.

Some of the sons and daughters taking over their parents' ministries have been raised in very well-to-do homes and have been isolated from the common man. Some feel they deserve the best and are very far removed from the pain of poverty or lack. They have never lived from paycheck-to-paycheck, or wondered where they'd get the money for the light bill. They have lived a privileged life and excess for you and I is not excess in their world.

I have lots to say about ministries saying, "Give to me so God will give to you." Instead, I'll leave that for someone else to say.

[rhymnrzn]

(from yahoo news)

quote: TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."  

....wow i never heard that before

[billintulsa]

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

(from yahoo news)

quote: TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."  

....wow i never heard that before

As best that I recall this was indeed what happened.  Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital.  Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").

It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.

[RecycleMichael]

Oral missed his chance to go down as a real truth teller on that one.

If he had really died that day without raising the money, can you imagine how much money and how many bible readers he would have created?

[TheArtist]

Many universities that originally started out as religious universities became more secular and independent with time. I wonder if we are seeing the first tiny signs of that happening? It may take the next generation for that to really happen in this case though. Also having ties now with, OU or OSU I believe, will have an influence.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by billintulsa

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

(from yahoo news)

quote: TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."  

....wow i never heard that before

As best that I recall this was indeed what happened.  Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital.  Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").

It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.

It was "Call Him Home"...Didn't he see a 900 ft Jesus as well.....

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by billintulsa

quote:Originally posted by rhymnrzn

(from yahoo news)

quote: TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."  

....wow i never heard that before

As best that I recall this was indeed what happened.  Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital.  Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").

It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.

Yeah, I was here at that time. Strangely, God neglected to tell him that hospitals were overbuilt at the time with a surplus of beds available. The local hospitals pointed it out but were ignored. The 900ft Jesus made for some hilarious jokes. Certainly funnier than the current scandal.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

The 900ft Jesus made for some hilarious jokes. Certainly funnier than the current scandal.

Has anyone here collected one of the posters that were circulating then, depicting a standard yellow pedestrian crossing sign with a silhouette of Jesus and the text "900' XING AHEAD" beneath?

The photo was taken with ORU in the background, and is one of those images that always comes to mind when I stop and think we shouldnt take ourselves too seriously.

[cannon_fodder]

Well Rowdy, I guess you took your ball and went home.  But I'll respond anyway, since I assume in your posting that you were seeking a response.

quote:Originally posted by Rowdy

I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.  

FACTS:  Lives in very expensive house.  Drives very expensive cars.  Has very expensive.  Wife has 600+ Sq. Ft. closet.  His daughters make ~9 times the average wage working for his charity.    Begs for money for his charity claiming he is helping god and the poor.  Refused student requests for budget information.  

No one is arguing with those facts.  Those are the FACTS I used to morally lynch him.

quote:
I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it).

YOU CALLED ANYONE WHO DISAGREED WITH YOU STUPID.  That is extremely judgmental.  Hello pot, this is the kettle calling to tell you that you are black.  

If you want perfect agreement or you do not want to see other people's opinions; then this is certainly NOT the place for you.  Sorry to see you go but if it comes down to "agree with me" or I'm leaving - then leave.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by restored2x

Boy, I love your explanation about offerings-
"I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [!]"
Can I use that at church on Sunday? Our people would genuinely enjoy that quote.

Go for it!

[breitee]

Not only did Oral claim to see the 900 foot Jesus, but he also claimed that The 900 foot Jesus lifted up the unfinished "City of Filth" towers claiming "See how easy it is for me to lift them?" Oral did indeed claim that he would be "called home" if he didn't get a ton of money to finish the hospital. Well, he didn't get it, the hospital was never completely finished and what was in operation ceased in a few years. Oral spent a lot of money on the modern design with all of the gold mirrored glass. I guess he was trying to make it look like a Las Vegas hotel casino. Oral and his bunch have always been the biggest disgrace to the city of Tulsa and probably always will be. It is heartwarming to see that Richard is following so closely in Daddy's footsteps.

[shadows]

I believe that Oral was dedicated to providing an educational function that would have surpassed any in the local area.   While we are stoning him lets not forget the he was told that through the City of Faith it would be given the solution to cancer.

The contributions given to any organization are giving freely.  The support of the city leaders were never behind the welfare of the citizens and the hospital.  The idea that one man could develop a complete teaching facility outside the Lords of the City Circle became a thorn in the palm of their hands.  

True, their cry was that we had enough hospital rooms for years to come died when shortly after the City of Faith was open there was a glut of expanding the present hospitals by adding more rooms.  

Builders of empires have a hard time passing on to their offspring's the drive that stimulated the production of the acts they create.  Like workers of the city they look at the enormous income and in the name of the city's being so fortunate as to have their leadership they are able to set their own salaries.  

The acts of Richard wife, proven or unproven, displayed before the public are accusations that by all moral rights have no place in the impending action before a court.   Not only do they destroy before the public the marriage ideals but in doing so many seek to cut off the funding to ORU and undermine the integrity of an asset to the City of Tulsa.

Posters would seek to destroy those who in their final need for comforting, turn to the creator as a resource.  From ones observation Oral could have the keys to the pearly gates in hand, not the leash to the golden calf of Aaron.  

       

[restored2x]

Oral's back in town:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071022_1__OralR64430