$294 Million TIF for the River District approved

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Oddly enough, the Kimberly Clark paper plant in Jenks contributes property tax to Bixby schools and not Jenks schools.

Jenks has a preference for corn cobs, and a visceral hatred for toilet paper.  

That's what I heard anyway.

[Double A]

# Strike the city's option to buy a new baseball stadium under consideration at the site and ensure that it is owned by no entity that would be exempt from taxes.

Does this mean the Driller Stadium will not be included in the TIF that was approved? If so, does that mean the stadium isn't moving forward?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

# Strike the city's option to buy a new baseball stadium under consideration at the site and ensure that it is owned by no entity that would be exempt from taxes.

Does this mean the Driller Stadium will not be included in the TIF that was approved? If so, does that mean the stadium isn't moving forward?

No,

The way I read it, this doesn't impact the construction of the stadium. The original plan was that the stadium would be sold at the end of the TIF period to the city of Jenks for one dollar. If the city owns the stadium, it's not on the property tax roles. The provision means the stadium has to remain under some sort of ownership that is not public that would then still pay property taxes that would then benefit Jenks Schools.

[bacjz00]

Driving by the TIF land on the way to work this morning...I was wondering.  Who wants to look at that power plant during ball games and while shopping?  

I know the cooling benefits are obvious, but it seems like everywhere you ever think about developing on the river in Tulsa County, you're never very far away from one of these eyesores.

[Conan71]

I still like the concept of a stadium on the COT M & E site at 23rd & Jackson.  You can build the stadium with it's "back" to the eyesores, and you'd get a pretty good view of the river and downtown from there.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I still like the concept of a stadium on the COT M & E site at 23rd & Jackson.  You can build the stadium with it's "back" to the eyesores, and you'd get a pretty good view of the river and downtown from there.

I'll go for here or the east village..

Anthing else... is craaap!

[TheArtist]

From the renderings of the stadium I have seen, and looking at the sightlines, you will not be able to see either the river or downtown from inside the stadium unless you are perhaps on the top rows.



As for the power plant and the refineries. I dont know why so many locals think they are ugly. I think they look really neat. I have visitors from out of town, when driving along riverside at night go, "Wow, whats all that? Thats neat."  In cities like London and Paris, and many others, they have power plants by their rivers and have even turned some of them into museums. Some new buildings like one in Paris, they actually put all the pipes and "guts" of the building on the outside to purposely make it look industrial.

You can choose to decide its ugly and unattractive, or cool and beatuiful. Guess it depends on your attitudes and how you want to go through life seeing things. Each person can of course have their own ideas of what is beautiful but it irks me when people make narrow minded, negative statements that just assume everyone thinks the same. It feels kind of rude or even mean to those of us who do find beauty in those things.  

The beautiful Centre Pompidou in Paris

http://www.centrepompidou.fr/img/pano2.jpg

http://people.csail.mit.edu/harr/Paris/pompidoumodernartmuseum.jpg


The wonderful Tate Modern in London

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6765-2/167_Tate_Modern_and_the_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

http://marksquires.com/Images_Photos/tatemodern.jpg

They even built a really neat bridge to go right to it. The Millenium Bridge.

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6783-2/178_Tate_Modern_and_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

From the renderings of the stadium I have seen, and looking at the sightlines, you will not be able to see either the river or downtown from inside the stadium unless you are perhaps on the top rows.



As for the power plant and the refineries. I dont know why so many locals think they are ugly. I think they look really neat. I have visitors from out of town, when driving along riverside at night go, "Wow, whats all that? Thats neat."  In cities like London and Paris, and many others, they have power plants by their rivers and have even turned some of them into museums. Some new buildings like one in Paris, they actually put all the pipes and "guts" of the building on the outside to purposely make it look industrial.

You can choose to decide its ugly and unattractive, or cool and beatuiful. Guess it depends on your attitudes and how you want to go through life seeing things. Each person can of course have their own ideas of what is beautiful but it irks me when people make narrow minded, negative statements that just assume everyone thinks the same. It feels kind of rude or even mean to those of us who do find beauty in those things.  

The beautiful Centre Pompidou in Paris

http://www.centrepompidou.fr/img/pano2.jpg

http://people.csail.mit.edu/harr/Paris/pompidoumodernartmuseum.jpg


The wonderful Tate Modern in London

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6765-2/167_Tate_Modern_and_the_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

http://marksquires.com/Images_Photos/tatemodern.jpg

They even built a really neat bridge to go right to it. The Millenium Bridge.

http://nora.embl-heidelberg.de/gallery/d/6783-2/178_Tate_Modern_and_Millenium_Bridge.jpg

I agree Artist. Many people from out of town are actually impressed with the look of the refineries at night. And I think the power plant stacks would be cool if they made them look like a barber's pole or a candy cane, but that would require a sense of humor. Something we seem short of around here.

Did you see the Sand Springs neighborhood that complained about having a tornado siren on a pole in clear sight of the neighborhood?! All the utilities in the hood are buried and they didn't like the "ugly". I had to laugh. We are so hung up on conformity, that we can no longer appreciate anything different. Different=Ugly. Same=Beauty. Somewhere in life I failed to embrace that philosophy.

[bacjz00]

I feel the need to respond...

I don't disagree that we should embrace our somewhat industrial heritage and that refineries and power plants CAN be done tastefully, but honestly...talking about what London and Paris HAVE versus what you'd like Tulsan's to ENVISION are two different ideas all together.  One is reality, the other is a state of mind.  

None of our power plants or refineries have been utilized any where close to the same fashion as what you've shown us.  It's not that I'm against power plants, but let's be honest. Are either of the PSO or Cogentrix plants going to be "wrapped" into the Jenks TIF development as something that needs to be made into a museum or happening industrial hangout spot?  No.  So what you're left with is smokestacks off yonder which simply look out of place next to a retail and recreation development.  I'm not saying it will or SHOULD kill the project, but to me, it's just not ideal.  Just an opinion.

For the record...I work downtown and I often work late at night.  My office overlooks the Arkansas River to the south and west and I LOVE the way the refineries and the lights look at night.  It can be intoxicating.   To me it reflects human progress and economic success in addition to the fact that it just looks neat.  BUT (there's always a but)...it doesn't mean I'd choose to live and play right next door to one.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by bacjz00

I feel the need to respond...

I don't disagree that we should embrace our somewhat industrial heritage and that refineries and power plants CAN be done tastefully, but honestly...talking about what London and Paris HAVE versus what you'd like Tulsan's to ENVISION are two different ideas all together.  One is reality, the other is a state of mind.  

None of our power plants or refineries have been utilized any where close to the same fashion as what you've shown us.  It's not that I'm against power plants, but let's be honest. Are either of the PSO or Cogentrix plants going to be "wrapped" into the Jenks TIF development as something that needs to be made into a museum or happening industrial hangout spot?  No.  So what you're left with is smokestacks off yonder which simply look out of place next to a retail and recreation development.  I'm not saying it will or SHOULD kill the project, but to me, it's just not ideal.  Just an opinion.

For the record...I work downtown and I often work late at night.  My office overlooks the Arkansas River to the south and west and I LOVE the way the refineries and the lights look at night.  It can be intoxicating.   To me it reflects human progress and economic success in addition to the fact that it just looks neat.  BUT (there's always a but)...it doesn't mean I'd choose to live and play right next door to one.

I want to apologize too, I reread my response and it was a bit harsh. I guess it was one of those things I had heard many times before so I wasnt just responding to what you said, but aaaall the others combined lol. You were just the lucky devil that got my pent up frustration on the subject lol.

Just something I will have to realize is the way it is. But though I have pointed out the existance of power plants and such that have been retrofitted. In many cities they have yet to be so. Sometimes the reason they save them is because the people are used to them and think of them as part of the city landscape, they are part of the area around them, a familiar landmark for a particular area. But that is often why they are saved when no longer in use. I suppose its just not something we are used to. We may find that years from now when there is development around that old power plant in Jenks that people will become "used" to it and even begin to consider it part of the landscape that should remain even when its use as a power station is not feasible.

[Conan71]

When I lived at Center Plaza 20 years ago, I had a south view from the south tower (200 CP).  The view during the day of the refineries was not that pleasing, but with the lights at night, it was pretty cool to show off to friends.

[FOTD]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735


"Jenks is Jenks because of the school system. . . ."


Is there really a demand for 850,000 sq. ft. of development? This would take years to develop and years to occupy. Meanwhile, the cash due the school system is put at enormous risk.
Is this the role of government? So much in our community has been built over the years without this scam financing it makes one wonder. Tulsa Hills is going to be a success if the people come from the east as there does not exist the necessary densities for sales on the west side. Build it and they will come? Risky at best.

Sharp and Mitchell remind me of Harold Hill. What if their scheme unravels? It would seem to me the children lose in that case.



The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735


"Jenks is Jenks because of the school system. . . ."


Is there really a demand for 850,000 sq. ft. of development? This would take years to develop and years to occupy. Meanwhile, the cash due the school system is put at enormous risk.
Is this the role of government? So much in our community has been built over the years without this scam financing it makes one wonder. Tulsa Hills is going to be a success if the people come from the east as there does not exist the necessary densities for sales on the west side. Build it and they will come? Risky at best.

Sharp and Mitchell remind me of Harold Hill. What if their scheme unravels? It would seem to me the children lose in that case.

The piece that the school district seems to be overlooking is that, without the TIF, the land will remain undeveloped.  Without the TIF, Jenks will earn 100% of the growth in property taxes in this area...unfortunately that growth will be close to zero.

So, the offer is $7.5 million.  Sure, it may not be as much as they want, but it is better than the alternative, which is nothing.  I'm skeptical of the $13.2 million impact estimate.  How is this commercial development likely to harm, directly, the school system?  Even if the "urban village" thing includes lots of housing, aren't those kinds of people going to be the same kinds that located in the new downtown Tulsa developments, i.e., empty nesters and young singles?

The problems that JPS is having with funding and growth are due to the explosive sprawl of the suburbs.  It's a global issue for them and should be dealt with city-wide.  It really is unfair to try and "solve" the problem by squeezing somebody who really isn't proposing to contribute to the problem in a big way.  Especially when, the nature of the development is more efficient for Jenks and the school system in the long run.

On the other hand, when they say "The time is ripe to upstage Tulsa," I get a little miffed.  That's not very neighborly.

[FOTD]

The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken LittleThe piece that the school district seems to be overlooking is that, without the TIF, the land will remain undeveloped.  Without the TIF, Jenks will earn 100% of the growth in property taxes in this area...unfortunately that growth will be close to zero.

+1