$294 Million TIF for the River District approved

[BKDotCom]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.

The location is good "location" wise... it is sorta cut off from the rest of the river development by the turnpike though...

What makes it unattractive to developers is is that it's in a flood plain.   A lot of earth work required.

[Conan71]

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.

The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The land will not go undeveloped if there is demand, financing and a capable person to pull it all together. If it's such a great location then the process will happen on it's own merits.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

Maybe, but that's an esoteric argument when: a) It hasn't developed on it's own in, well, forever, and b) there are willing people out there right now who recognize the demand, have financing, and are capable of putting together a pretty good idea.

These guys are saying that it won't work "on it's own merits".  That, essentially, there is a gap.  Whether JPS chooses to believe them or not is one thing.

But, weighing this out, JPS is getting a guarantee of $7.5 million up front vs. the possibility (not a guarantee) of a big return that is likely to be years away.  And again, accepting the bird in hand or going into the bushes is JPS's call.  I have opinions, but whatever.

My only real beef is that I just can't see how this development will hurt the schools.  It likely won't house that many school kids, in my opinion.  Therefore, I think the $7.5 million that has been offered will more than offset the development's impact on the school system.  JPS, by asking for more, may be using it's position to extort money from an investor that, ironically, is offering a more efficient kind of development.  What I mean is, if everyone in Jenks built as compactly as these guys are proposing, then you'd have a pretty efficient town, and a pretty efficient school system.  So, they seem to be demanding that this mixed-use developer subsidize their sprawling, inefficient, lifestyle.  Is this sounding like a familiar refrain?

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

850K sq. ft. of retail space.  That's a lot.  Especially w/ Tulsa Hills going up to the north of Jenks.

The way I read the article, there seems to be 850,000 sq. ft. of mixed use. In any case, if it is in the flood plain then the Corps of Engineers might help with the dirt movement. If not, was Lynn Mitchell aware of all the infrastructure expense prior to purchasing the land? If so, he's set Jenks up. If not, he's not a worthy developer in the first place.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

The CORPS cannot participate in a flood plain mitigation project unless the project removes significant existing property from that flood plain.

[FOTD]

Whatever the case may be, I am not a fan of welfare. Especially when it supercedes the public education of our future generations.

I will add that the cost is in the risk of this development if it does indeed fail. That is when the piper needs to be paid. That is when the school district funding has to kick in and at a higher level than originally mapped out. I am not certain about this but would think that's a potentially big problem.

Just because a promoter says it will happen does not make his statement true. Also, lots of real estate has been rendered lousy because of cutting corners during construction or because the banks were too loose with their financing terms and conditions in the first place.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Whatever the case may be, I am not a fan of welfare. Especially when it supercedes the public education of our future generations.

I'm not a fan of welfare either.  The whole problem with TIFs is that it expects taxing bodies to behave like investors.  That's generally not within their purview.  In fact, you could argue that speculating in real estate, which is precisely what this is, violates their fiduciary duty to the citizenry.

To me, the TIF looks like a pretty good investment.  But I can certainly see how a  school district wouldn't evaluate it the same way.  

Regardless, that still doesn't let JPS off the hook if they are overcharging these guys.  The school should be able to look at this development and assess, accurately, what kind of impact it will have over time.

This $13.2 million was an impact caluclation derived from what was paid by Tulsa Hills.  That has to be bogus.  Tulsa Hills will put exactly zero children into JPS.  Where's the impact?  LaFortune The developer (my bad) gave them a little sumpin'-sumpin' in order to grease the wheels and get on with construction.  Calling it an impact fee doesn't make it one.

[FOTD]

^Yeppers. I'm still wondering if Tulsa Hills will support the original pro forma spreadsheets. It should if TH comes in on budget. Heard they moved 950,000 yards of dirt.
That's the biggest in Tulsa history. They have some credit worthy leases all over there. Which makes me wonder who is left to go in Jenks that is credit worthy. Nordstroms is not a likely lead tenant. Their credit is thin. In order to land them, you have to give them the land and a bundle of cash. At TH and every other new location, I think Target as anchor just gets their land free in order to attract the other tenants.

I think Big Disappointment Bill II supported Tulsa Hills to win Darla Hall over.

Didn't work....

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[Conan71]

Sooner or later, Tulsa and NE Oklahoma are going to experience another economic slow-down.  If you can believe the article in the World this morning, it's going to be sooner.  I'm concerned about a glut of under-leased new retail property that's going to tank property values on the commercial real estate market.

[FOTD]

So true....

These problems implode once the trend begins.

Many people on these threads have nice vision (I hate using that term) and wonderful ideas, but have not lived long enough to witness what happens when credit dries up. It's mean, nasty and ugly. Hopefully, it will not resemble the 80's.

Recall the term "red lined"?


The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

^Yeppers. I'm still wondering if Tulsa Hills will support the original pro forma spreadsheets. It should if TH comes in on budget. Heard they moved 950,000 yards of dirt.
That's the biggest in Tulsa history. They have some credit worthy leases all over there. Which makes me wonder who is left to go in Jenks that is credit worthy. Nordstroms is not a likely lead tenant. Their credit is thin. In order to land them, you have to give them the land and a bundle of cash. At TH and every other new location, I think Target as anchor just gets their land free in order to attract the other tenants.

I think Big Disappointment Bill II supported Tulsa Hills to win Darla Hall over.

Didn't work....

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

We get it AOX, FOTD, whatever, all developments that have not asked you for personal advice are stupid.

The developer of the river district is not asking the city or schools to take on any indebtedness, if anything is to built using financing, the developers will be guaranteeing the loan, not the governmental entities.

I have no idea if Nordstrom's is being looked at as a lead retailer, but the statement that Nordstrom's credit is thin is a pretty thin statement itself

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=JWN

``Despite a tough operating environment and a series of unfortunate events, including bad weather and fires in California, the company performed beautifully,'' Patricia Edwards, a Seattle-based money manager at Wentworth Hauser & Violich, said today. The firm holds Nordstrom shares among the $13.4 billion in assets it manages.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGnQT6XOkNng&refer=home

[FOTD]

Hmmm....

Nordstrom's has been floated. And they typically locate in much more densely populated areas.

I'd like to know what else is being pandered for the good of Jenks.

JPS is being called on to securitize this transaction. Have you even looked at the consequences if this deal were to go bad?

Personal guarantees are only good up to a point.
And, who wants to be asked about the minutia of some real estate deal?
Shouldn't one be more concerned about the deep unknown future of our public schools? Even the home school parents and the private school parents should be aware.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell

[spoonbill]

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

My daughter loves baseball, and she thinks the Kimberly Clark plant is a "Cloud Factory."  So I think it's the perfect location!

On another note. . . There is no shortage of interest in the project by retailers and restaurants.  The demographic study is amazing!  If you run a simple Catosphere demographic study, the property is smack-dab in the middle of a huge hot-spot.

A few of the developers on the East side of the river are feeling the impact.  Several retail organizations are pulling out of their current agreements in anticipation of the development. . . and some have only agreed to a two year lease for the developments just over the bridge in Tulsa.  

There is quite a buzz among the development community in attempts to play off of the momentum and snatch up available land surrounding the development.

That's great. Then the developer should be able to do this transaction on it's own merits without welfare.

[Conan71]

Okay, I don't agree with a whole lot FOTD proffers on here, but if borrowed funding sources were to dry up mid-project, that area is going to be hosed for another 10 years.  Or let's say it gets finished and some stores renege on their agreements due to the business climate either here or elsewhere in their operations.  Basically what happened to Eastland Shopping Mall about 1972 or so.  

One difference in those two projects is sprawl didn't make it as far or fast as predicted with Eastland.  It is happening w/ Jenks and will continue to happen, so long as we don't have a two or three year fart in the economy which slows things down out south.

I'm not poo-pooing, just saying there's some caution being thrown to the wind here.  I hope the project goes well, our economic boom continues, and this is a nice focal point for Jenks along the riverbanks.