Drillers Downtown: Time Running Out

[Renaissance]

Maybe that's right.  But I'm not convinced the deal is done.  

[Renaissance]

I received a response from Mr. Kissler while the forum was down and just remembered to post it:

quote: ***Floyd***, thanks for your interest.  However, the Wal-mart developer still has the land under contract.  City really wasn't behind our concept anyway.

-Tim

So that's where the East End is at.  In other words, nobody's moving any time soon.

It seems pretty clear that the Chicago consulting company Himmelfarb found will come in and recommend that a new Driller's Stadium be built on the city's Hartford Building land.  For whatever reason, that appears to be what Taylor's administration wants, or at least thinks is feasible.  Just about the time City of Tulsa gets around to putting out a Request for Proposals, the Jenks TIF will pass.  Just about the time Tulsa gets an interested developer, Jenks will move their stadium from the concept phase to the drawing board.  Just about the time that Tulsa has a pretty drawing ready to go, Jenks will be ready to break ground.  And the rest will hinge on Lamson.  Ultimately, he will decide between two options.  The Drillers will play in a 6500 seat ballpark and be a small suburban AA team that anchors a shopping mall, or they will play in an 11,000 seat stadium and be a big urban AA team with potential for expansion, anchoring a downtown resurgence.  The pasture land development would probably be ready two seasons earlier, say by spring 2010, where the downtown option would be more like 2012, given the current pace of things.  

I worry that Lamson might get impatient and move to the stadium that would be finished first.  But, one heartening tidbit is that he has made arrangements with the County to go year-to-year on his lease through the end of 2012.  In other words, the Drillers appear willing to give City of Tulsa a little bit more time to prepare an alternative to prevent them from leaving the city.  And so it seems likely, Inteller and Swake, that there won't be an announcement any time soon.  This probably won't be resolved until at least the end of 2008.

Both the urban and suburban models work, as far as the economics of running a minor league club are concerned.  A downtown ballpark is much more favorable for the Tulsa metro area.  I hope City of Tulsa gets their act together and at least provides the Drillers the option of staying home.

[TheArtist]

One thing I think you have wrong is the urban suburban thing.  Once the River District is done it will be more busy and urban than downtown Tulsa. A bunch of tall, essentially empty buildings, surface parking lots, vacant small buildings and run down areas around that, do NOT make an urban area. Those buildings might as well be rocks in a field. It may well "look" urban but as anyone who will tell you who goes down there after work hours or on weekends, those buildings are simply an illusion of urban.

I think to deny the reality of the situation is to hamper any solution to changing it. If you cant really see what the situation is, your not likely to be able to come up with best way to progress. That perspecitve is causing more harm than good imo.

[swake]

I hate to be a downer, but it's much worse than what you have in your scenario.

The Jenks TIF is scheduled to be approved on December 17th, in three weeks. I don't think the city will even have a signed contract with the consulant by then. The River District is then supposed to break ground in the spring, I doubt the consultants report will even be done by then, much less be ready to put the sites out for an RFP.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by swake

I hate to be a downer, but it's much worse than what you have in your scenario.

The Jenks TIF is scheduled to be approved on December 17th, in three weeks. I don't think the city will even have a signed contract with the consulant by then. The River District is then supposed to break ground in the spring, I doubt the consultants report will even be done by then, much less be ready to put the sites out for an RFP.

Yeah, but what I don't get is why Lamson would negotiate for the year-to-year option through 2012, if not to keep his options open?  If it was a done deal already, that November 20th story would have read, "Drillers decline to extend lease" rather than "Drillers keep options open."  

It seems to me that, no matter the pace of Jenks' plans, this is still a wait and see situation that hinges on Tulsa's ability to get a plan together in time to have a stadium superior to the Jenks plan open for the 2012 or 2013 season.  

But, no amount of ineptitude by Tulsa "leaders" would surprise me at this point.  It's completely possible that I'm misreading the situation, and the lease extension option is just to give Jenks construction flexibility.  We'll find out after the TIF is approved, because there's no way they'll go forward without a binding letter of intent.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

One thing I think you have wrong is the urban suburban thing.  Once the River District is done it will be more busy and urban than downtown Tulsa. A bunch of tall, essentially empty buildings, surface parking lots, vacant small buildings and run down areas around that, do NOT make an urban area. Those buildings might as well be rocks in a field. It may well "look" urban but as anyone who will tell you who goes down there after work hours or on weekends, those buildings are simply an illusion of urban.

I think to deny the reality of the situation is to hamper any solution to changing it. If you cant really see what the situation is, your not likely to be able to come up with best way to progress. That perspecitve is causing more harm than good imo.

It just depends on what your perspective and values are regarding the city fabric.  Fundamentally, if you think it's okay to sprawl outward and leave history and former density behind, then I can't help you.  It may be dense, but it's outside the urban core and thus definitively suburban.

Artist, I usually read and respect what you write here, and I understand you're excited about the river district.  But you need to come to terms with the fact that it is simply another instance of the suburbs bribing developers out of Tulsa using cheaper land and lower tax rates.  You may like the design, but it's not, and will never be, "urban," in the sense of sustaining the vitality of the city.  The design elements are nothing more than a marketing device to make you this development attractive to you.  There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but don't pretend that it's the equivalent of a revitalized downtown.

Further, you talk about parking lots and empty buildings, but you don't acknowledge that the answer is staring you in the face.  Build a stadium on top of the parking lots and decrepit buildings in the East End, and development will follow.  I've gone over the examples too often to repeat them, but American cities have shown this to be true.  Austin and Dallas both have suburban minor league teams that are successful, which was my point in saying that both models work.  But unlike those cities, Tulsa needs help downtown, not in a cow pasture.  If this community had a coherent vision and leadership (not saying we don't, but it appears addicted to backroom dealing) then there wouldn't be any argument about where the best place for the ballpark would be.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by swake

I hate to be a downer, but it's much worse than what you have in your scenario.

The Jenks TIF is scheduled to be approved on December 17th, in three weeks. I don't think the city will even have a signed contract with the consulant by then. The River District is then supposed to break ground in the spring, I doubt the consultants report will even be done by then, much less be ready to put the sites out for an RFP.

Yeah, but what I don't get is why Lamson would negotiate for the year-to-year option through 2012, if not to keep his options open?  If it was a done deal already, that November 20th story would have read, "Drillers decline to extend lease" rather than "Drillers keep options open."  

It seems to me that, no matter the pace of Jenks' plans, this is still a wait and see situation that hinges on Tulsa's ability to get a plan together in time to have a stadium superior to the Jenks plan open for the 2012 or 2013 season.  

But, no amount of ineptitude by Tulsa "leaders" would surprise me at this point.  It's completely possible that I'm misreading the situation, and the lease extension option is just to give Jenks construction flexibility.  We'll find out after the TIF is approved, because there's no way they'll go forward without a binding letter of intent.

Well, the River District TIF was not approved at the time he negotiated the year to year deal, it's still not formally approved even though as of last week it's a foregone conclusion.  What if it had been denied? What if even now there are construction delays or financing delays? These things happen. Like you say, It's just good business to have a safety net.

I do think that if something happens downtown really fast he would listen. But you are also correct that he is going to have to make a real and final decision on Jenks in just a matter of a few weeks. Most likely it would not even be possible to have a firm downtown proposal with an approved TIF for at least a year, and there may never be one, there currently is no good option for a developer to make it happen downtown, at all. That's why the city has gone the outside consultant route.

Global is not the right group, at least not now. With regard to the statement from Global that the city wasn't "behind our concept", I don't know that the city of Tulsa should put forth too much effort helping Global until they show that they have the money to get the project done, which to date they have not. I like their pictures and what they say, but what they have shown so far is that they can't raise the cash to actually buy the major pieces of land they have under contract. They had the Nordam site under contract and couldn't even raise a couple of hundred grand to keep the site under contract. Some of their projects in other cities have now fallen through as well. There are two developers interested in the east end, one doesn't seem to have any money and the other only builds Wal-Marts and they aren't expanding right now. Finding a new developer with money and a plan will take time, a lot more time than three or four weeks.

[Renaissance]

Jenks is having a hearing tonight on the TIF.  Will be interesting to see what the tenor of the meeting is like.  I don't doubt that it will be granted, but I can imagine a scenario where the revenue requirements for occupying a Jenks stadium are less than favorable, giving Tulsa a chance to bring a deal to the table that's more financially advantageous to the Drillers.  A win-win, so to speak, where the River District happens sans stadium, Tulsa keeps its team, and the Drillers keep making money.

Meanwhile, while we pretend our team isn't getting stolen out from under us, here's a glowing article on downtown Des Moines, a Tulsa-type town (but smaller) with a new downtown ballpark.  Anybody who thinks we're not behind the curve on core revitalization needs to perk up and pay attention--Tulsa has fallen behind her peer cities, and losing the Drillers to the suburbs will push us futher towards the back of the pack.


http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/travel/02journeys.html

quote: A walk back across the Des Moines River offered a glimpse at the illuminated Beaux-Arts municipal buildings that line the riverfront. Downriver was Principal Park, a handsome Triple A ballpark for the Chicago Cubs farm team; the abandoned buildings that once surrounded the ballpark have been converted into condominiums. Downtown, the Kirkwood Corner, a legendary greasy spoon, is now a sushi restaurant. And — get this — the Rockettes are coming to town later this month for what is being advertised as their first performance in Des Moines.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that Des Moines has become a vacation destination. But it has most certainly become cool. More than that, if you have any desire to witness presidential candidates in the most close-up and intimate of settings, there is arguably no place better to go than Des Moines. If the city itself was once a reason not to come, it has now in fact become an added draw.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Jenks is having a hearing tonight on the TIF.  Will be interesting to see what the tenor of the meeting is like.  I don't doubt that it will be granted, but I can imagine a scenario where the revenue requirements for occupying a Jenks stadium are less than favorable, giving Tulsa a chance to bring a deal to the table that's more financially advantageous to the Drillers.  A win-win, so to speak, where the River District happens sans stadium, Tulsa keeps its team, and the Drillers keep making money.

Meanwhile, while we pretend our team isn't getting stolen out from under us, here's a glowing article on downtown Des Moines, a Tulsa-type town (but smaller) with a new downtown ballpark.  Anybody who thinks we're not behind the curve on core revitalization needs to perk up and pay attention--Tulsa has fallen behind her peer cities, and losing the Drillers to the suburbs will push us futher towards the back of the pack.


http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/travel/02journeys.html

quote: A walk back across the Des Moines River offered a glimpse at the illuminated Beaux-Arts municipal buildings that line the riverfront. Downriver was Principal Park, a handsome Triple A ballpark for the Chicago Cubs farm team; the abandoned buildings that once surrounded the ballpark have been converted into condominiums. Downtown, the Kirkwood Corner, a legendary greasy spoon, is now a sushi restaurant. And — get this — the Rockettes are coming to town later this month for what is being advertised as their first performance in Des Moines.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that Des Moines has become a vacation destination. But it has most certainly become cool. More than that, if you have any desire to witness presidential candidates in the most close-up and intimate of settings, there is arguably no place better to go than Des Moines. If the city itself was once a reason not to come, it has now in fact become an added draw.

Agreed.  I sure hope the mayor is working fast and furious behind the scenes on a plan to get the Drillers to move downtown instead of out to Jenks.

[USRufnex]

[EDITED]

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

[EDITED]

USRufnex, would you mind explaining your continued off-topic potshots at Oil Capital? I've gone back in the archives to try to figure out what he's said that has offended you so, and I can't see where he's dumped on Tulsa, on you, or on soccer.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

[EDITED]

USRufnex, would you mind explaining your continued off-topic potshots at Oil Capital? I've gone back in the archives to try to figure out what he's said that has offended you so, and I can't see where he's dumped on Tulsa, on you, or on soccer.

explain to me why you deserve an explanation?
drillers, forget that? where's my money for the dams that you promised?

[Renaissance]

Moving on from the threadjackers (let's be civil here, people, there's a downtown on the line) . . .

This article was noted in the other thread but it is apropos here.  Looks like there will at least be spirited discussion of the Jenks TIF, and possibily a citywide vote.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735

quote: The Jenks school board sent Superintendent Kirby Lehman to City Hall on Monday night to inform the City Council that the school district intends to lead an effort to bring to a public vote a plan that would divert millions of dollars in property taxes from the schools.

I haven't the foggiest idea what's involved in such a vote--procedure, timeline, etc.--but I do know that it would buy Tulsa more time to get its act together.

quote: About an equal number of people spoke at the public hearing in favor of the TIF as spoke against it.

Jenks resident Danny Christner said The River District is a golden opportunity to become a premiere community.

"The time is ripe to upstage Tulsa," he said.

Steve Murphy, a Tulsa-area developer, said The River District is a wonderful opportunity for Jenks.

"They're taking a risk that no one else is willing to take on that hay field," Murphy said. "They're not going to be able to do this by themselves.

Just to recap--Jenks developers want to build a very nice, new, faux-urban sprawl center, and they want to steal the Drillers from Tulsa as the crown jewel of this suburban development.  This "upstage Tulsa" stuff shows that it's an explicitly adversarial situation, like it or not.  "Regionalism" is out the window, and so it's time for our MAYOR to step up and use her bully pulpit.  

To the Taylor Administration (Himmelfarb, et al.):
I KNOW YOU PEOPLE READ THIS FORUM.  LISTEN TO ME NOW.  THERE IS NO TIME TO WASTE.  GET ON THE PHONE AND FIND SOMEONE TO MAKE A CONCEPTUAL DRAWING OF A STADIUM IN THE EAST END OF TULSA'S DOWNTOWN.  ANY STADIUM.  ANYWHERE.  ANYTHING TO AVOID LOSING THE PUBLIC RELATIONS BATTLE WITHOUT A FIGHT.

Okay, hyperventilation over.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Moving on from the threadjackers (let's be civil here, people, there's a downtown on the line) . . .

This article was noted in the other thread but it is apropos here.  Looks like there will at least be spirited discussion of the Jenks TIF, and possibily a citywide vote.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071204_1_A1_hScho30735

quote: The Jenks school board sent Superintendent Kirby Lehman to City Hall on Monday night to inform the City Council that the school district intends to lead an effort to bring to a public vote a plan that would divert millions of dollars in property taxes from the schools.

I haven't the foggiest idea what's involved in such a vote--procedure, timeline, etc.--but I do know that it would buy Tulsa more time to get its act together.

quote: About an equal number of people spoke at the public hearing in favor of the TIF as spoke against it.

Jenks resident Danny Christner said The River District is a golden opportunity to become a premiere community.

"The time is ripe to upstage Tulsa," he said.

Steve Murphy, a Tulsa-area developer, said The River District is a wonderful opportunity for Jenks.

"They're taking a risk that no one else is willing to take on that hay field," Murphy said. "They're not going to be able to do this by themselves.

Just to recap--Jenks developers want to build a very nice, new, faux-urban sprawl center, and they want to steal the Drillers from Tulsa as the crown jewel of this suburban development.  This "upstage Tulsa" stuff shows that it's an explicitly adversarial situation, like it or not.  "Regionalism" is out the window, and so it's time for our MAYOR to step up and use her bully pulpit.  

To the Taylor Administration (Himmelfarb, et al.):
I KNOW YOU PEOPLE READ THIS FORUM.  LISTEN TO ME NOW.  THERE IS NO TIME TO WASTE.  GET ON THE PHONE AND FIND SOMEONE TO MAKE A CONCEPTUAL DRAWING OF A STADIUM IN THE EAST END OF TULSA'S DOWNTOWN.  ANY STADIUM.  ANYWHERE.  ANYTHING TO AVOID LOSING THE PUBLIC RELATIONS BATTLE WITHOUT A FIGHT.

Okay, hyperventilation over.

:-)  I share your frustration.  I can't think of any development possibilities for downtown Tulsa that are (a) as possible and (b) as important as a Drillers Stadium.  That absolutely needs to happen.

[Renaissance]

I appreciate your sentiment.  It just seems like there's this general longing for baseball in our downtown, but we've been dawdling along too long and now the possibility is going to disappear for twenty years.  To use a foobtall metaphor for the baseball situation: We're losing the game and time is running out, but we're still punting on fourth down instead of going for it.  

I'll be interested to see what Jones-Lang-LaSalle has up their sleeve.  The problem is that they'll also be tasked with solving the development deadlock in the Arena District, and I'll bet the mayor's office has asked them to prioritize that over finding a stadium developer.  

But gosh, I'm just grasping at straws here.  Maybe the Tulsa World should start asking questions about how exactly our leaders downtown are seeking to offset the massive attempts by the suburbs to leach off the resources of Tulsa proper.  Or perhaps City Hall could issue a release stating specific goals with a timeline, instead of sending Himmelfarb around with vague promises of "things to come."