Drillers Downtown: Time Running Out

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The downtown baseball stadium in San Francisco spurred development in an area that was struggling. Same with Denver and St. Louis and Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

I have walked back to my downtown hotel in each of these cities with hundreds of fans through an area of clubs and restaurants and new development.

Downtown baseball works.

Dont forget San Diego.  Petco park is beautiful, not to mention the weather there is amazing.  San Diego definitely did it right.  One of the best baseball stadiums I have been too. (and I have been to over 15).

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The downtown baseball stadium in San Francisco spurred development in an area that was struggling. Same with Denver and St. Louis and Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

I have walked back to my downtown hotel in each of these cities with hundreds of fans through an area of clubs and restaurants and new development.

Downtown baseball works.

Dont forget San Diego.  Petco park is beautiful, not to mention the weather there is amazing.  San Diego definitely did it right.  One of the best baseball stadiums I have been too. (and I have been to over 15).

Goodness, that ballpark is exactly the kind of design I am afraid we will get in that area of downtown.

Let me state something here, IF the ballpark were just north of downtown where that factory is now... Great, I dont care what kind of design it is. IF the ballpark were to be placed somewhere in the NW part of downtown... Great, I do not care what kind of design it is. HOWEVER, if your going to put it where the East End development was to be or where the Hartford building is, Then it would need to be designed so that it will fit into a pedestrian friendly urban area.

Say you put shopping around a stadium and put it where the factory is or in the NW part of downtown. The shopping would tank because nobody would go over there just for those few shops when there was not a game, it wouldnt be able to be part of or near any other walkable area.  The arena is ok because its main entrance faces away from the parking garages, prison, convention center,etc. There is property to its "front" that can be developed, "like the Heavenly Hospitality hotel design" into a pedestrian friendly area and leads to Main Street, Boston Ave, etc.

The area in the East End or where the Hartford Building is, is one of the best areas for development of a pedestrian friendly urban neighborhood. It sits right in the middle of the 6th street corridor area, Blue Dome district and the rest of central downtown, and the hoped for renewal of the Greenwood Historical district.

People fought vehemently against the Wal-Mart and one of the main reasons was because of its size and importantly because it would destroy the potential of that area to become a walkable, pedestrian friendly place to live.

Now that I have seen that a ballpark can be designed to be incorporated into the urban fabric of a walkable district, I would not at all be against a ballpark there, as long as it fit with what so many people have been pushing for in that area.

In a nutshell..

Downtown ballpark great... BUT, the design must pay attention to what it is near and what is wanted in that area.

Even if the city were to put in another structured parking garage somewhere. In some places it would be stupid to put in ground floor retail, but in some places it would be incredibly important in order to not create a gap in a walkable area or a hoped for walkable area.

Something like these would be fine north of downtown where the old factory is or in NW downtown were there is already so many "pedestrian unfriendly" structures it would be practically impossible to ever turn that area into one.







If you were to place a stadium in the East End or where the Hartfor building is, then it should be designed with the expectation that it will fit in with a walkable urban village.

Look at this design for a California Ballpark.

"The ballpark's signature feature would be its enclosure on all sides by three- and four-story buildings that would house some combination of offices, retail shops and attached residences (town houses and row houses)."  "The grandstands would be backed by retail and office buildings that would open on to Main Street."  "Home or office buildings would be located in center and right-center fields and would have unique views of the ball park from the rear windows on the second and/or third floors."   " In order to prevent the ballpark from impeding pedestrian traffic in and around the Town Center, designers have proposed a concourse beyond the center-field fence (at the base of the town houses) that would be open for public passage."The buildings surrounding the outfield would create a sense of urban enclosure similar to that prevailing at Camden Yards and legendary Wrigley Field in Chicago.  This is not surprising as two of the major contributors to the ballpark designs are New Urban architects Seth Harry (of Baltimore) and Philip Bess (who has spent most of his recent life within walking distance of the Cubs' home in North Chicago).  Bess is a professor of architecture at Notre Dame who began his crusade for more intimate, city-centered ball parks.."  http://www.tndwest.com/id40.html


 


Here is one for Winston Salem in which surrounding storefronts are integrated into the ballpark.



Here is one designed for Omaha



From the Omaha website...  http://www.livelyomaha.org/Civic_Omaha/NorthDowntown.html

The plan is the result of an 18-month study, commissioned by the City of Omaha and the Greater Omaha Chamber of Commerce, designed to establish a redevelopment plan for Omaha...The area will be transformed into a lively, mixed-use, PEDESTRIAN-ORIENTED URBAN NEIGHBORHOOD. Sixteenth Street will evolve into a major north-south WALKABLE CORRIDOR, and Webster Street, between Creighton University and the Riverfront, will evolve into a major east-west PEDESTRIAN ROUTE.

I guess what I am essentially trying to get at is that for the East End area we should have a "Form Based Code" ballpark. In other words, it doesnt matter what is in the building or what it is, as long as it does not disrupt the urban fabric and helps create a pleasing, walkable, pedestrian friendly, environment. If its off in some corner somewhere or out of the way, then it doesn't really matter what the design is.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The downtown baseball stadium in San Francisco spurred development in an area that was struggling. Same with Denver and St. Louis and Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

I have walked back to my downtown hotel in each of these cities with hundreds of fans through an area of clubs and restaurants and new development.

Downtown baseball works.

Dont forget San Diego.  Petco park is beautiful, not to mention the weather there is amazing.  San Diego definitely did it right.  One of the best baseball stadiums I have been too. (and I have been to over 15).

I could build a ****ing outhouse in downtown San Diego and it would be the best outhouse ever built because it is in San Diego.

Tulsa != San Diego.  Apples to oranges yadda yadda.

And BTW, the weather in San Diego is not all the great....too cold from the ocean and too sunny.

[TeeDub]

I love how all the ballparks people like have absolutely no parking anywhere else on the page.

Unless of course they are insinuating that no one cares to watch the Drillers play.

[inteller]

in the case of petco park, the parking garage is across the street and is a huge structure shared by the convention center and several hotels.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


I love how all the ballparks people like have absolutely no parking anywhere else on the page.

Unless of course they are insinuating that no one cares to watch the Drillers play.

Thats exactly the point. The parking is there, its often just hidden. Most of the ones I have seen that I like have parking garages that have retail and office buildings wrapped around them so they are hidden and do not disturb the walkability and appearance of an area.  Some parking garages can be really large but have condos or apartments wrapped around the outside. I believe the River District will have some structured parking, not for the ballpark since its off to the side, but a lot of the parking will be hidden.

[Renaissance]

Parking concerns are a red herring.  Downtown baseball works, and Tulsa needs it.  Now it's time to push the momentum.  

Missed this during my vacation, but now Dave Sittler's on board:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=071223_2_B1_spanc55567

quote:Wishing for downtown Drillers, hoops

by: DAVE SITTLER World Sports Columnist
12/23/2007  12:00 AM

ALL I want for Christmas is my two front seats.

Topping my wish list this holiday season is the fervent hope two press conferences will be held in 2008 for announcements that will have a dramatic impact on Tulsa's sports landscape.

I want to be in the front row when Chuck Lamson confirms that he's moving the Tulsa Drillers downtown instead of out of town. And I'll be front and center when the Tulsa Sports Commission reveals it has put together a dynamite basketball tournament for the new BOK Center.

The hope for the hoops event probably has the best chance of coming true. Call me greedy, but granting just one of those wishes won't cut it.

Mayor Kathy Taylor and Economic Development Director Don Himelfarb simply cannot fail in their attempt to convince Lamson to move his minor-league franchise to the heart of the city instead of Jenks.

Lamson has to play ball, too.

Four months ago, I joined the fence-sitting crowd when I wrote that while I desperately want the Drillers to stay within the city limits, I understood Lamson has to make the best long-term business decision for his team.

To heck with that weak-kneed stance. I've now jumped off the fence and stand squarely and firmly alongside those who want Lamson to make the best long-term decision for this city. My stance changed when developers scrapped plans to build a Wal-Mart Supercenter in the eastern part of downtown as part of a proposal to redevelop the East Village.

Lamson has acknowledged that the site where Wal-Mart planned to build was the spot where he had long hoped the city would build a new stadium for the Drillers.

Well, that piece of property is once again available. And building a baseball stadium on it would be an absolute home run in the city's efforts to revitalize downtown.

In a recent e-mail, Lamson said: "Things are progressing with both stadium groups and are starting to heat up. It should be an interesting January."

That heat will be on Taylor and Himelfarb in January to find a way to make Lamson an offer he can't refuse. The mayor and her top aide absolutely cannot lose this showdown with the developers who want to build a stadium for the Drillers in Jenks.

The January heat's also on Lamson to opt out of that nonbinding agreement he has the Jenks developers. The time has come for him to do the right thing by a city that has supported the Drillers for years and sign a binding agreement to relocate his franchise downtown.

From Lamson's comments in Sittler's article, there are obvious behind-the-scenes machinations occurring.  Those of us that weren't convinced it was a done deal were right--Chuck Lamson and the Drillers are giving Tulsa a small window of opportunity to come up with a winning plan.  I assume we will see something go public in January, and then it will be time to try to rally public support in Tulsa for the team to stay put.  There's already a Facebook group.

I believe, if a viable plan is unveiled, Tulsa Now and every other civic development organization should get behind it and pressure Lamson not to leave.  Of course, that's still an "if," but it's worth preparing for now.

[inteller]

Well, why don't Lorton just throw up a wad of cash and he can have Tulsa World Stadium.  

All over the country the public is getting out of the sports business.  i'd say primarily because the public is not seeing the ROI while the teams bank tons of cash.  Then you take something mediocre like a AA ball team and want the public to build a stadium.  Puh-leeeze!

[RecycleMichael]

Inteller is wrong. All over the country cities are looking at sports stadiums as anchors for new development.

Again I ask, why is OK to fund buildings for Opera and Ballet but not baseball?

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Inteller is wrong. All over the country cities are looking at sports stadiums as anchors for new development.

Again I ask, why is OK to fund buildings for Opera and Ballet but not baseball?

cities may be looking but people aren't voting.  What you DO get is things like Jenks TIF, but that isn't directly affecting the taxpayer's pocketbook.

[Renaissance]

National trends aside, Tulsa voters hate voting for taxes.  I would expect that any downtown stadium plan unveiled in January will, like the Jenks plan, be TIF-based, considering the abject failure of the river sales tax and upcoming street bond issue.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Inteller is wrong. All over the country cities are looking at sports stadiums as anchors for new development.

Again I ask, why is OK to fund buildings for Opera and Ballet but not baseball?

Good question. Do you think under the current atmosphere that we would publicly fund the PAC today? It took some leadership skills and a more sheepish public to accomplish that feat.

And, in the arts, there is no single owner or club of owners with restrictive membership like there is in baseball. That is an important distinction as anyone can assemble an act, negotiate with the PAC and put on a show. Maybe they make money, maybe they don't. But the overhead on the building is paid up front by the promoter so the public's interest is at least somewhat met. The baseball stadium is primarily for the use of its private owner for his private profit. The public paid for the opportunity for him to provide entertainment but only he and his fellow club members may participate.

My frustration with the setup is that only the few are being served the public's largesse yet the public has no input as to how and what they are served. The free market system is more efficient at the process. To be fair we would need to fund practically anything that will gather a few thousand people at a time. Or we codify exactly what will be publicly funded and under what circumstances.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Inteller is wrong. All over the country cities are looking at sports stadiums as anchors for new development.

Again I ask, why is OK to fund buildings for Opera and Ballet but not baseball?

Good question. Do you think under the current atmosphere that we would publicly fund the PAC today? It took some leadership skills and a more sheepish public to accomplish that feat.

And, in the arts, there is no single owner or club of owners with restrictive membership like there is in baseball. That is an important distinction as anyone can assemble an act, negotiate with the PAC and put on a show. Maybe they make money, maybe they don't. But the overhead on the building is paid up front by the promoter so the public's interest is at least somewhat met. The baseball stadium is primarily for the use of its private owner for his private profit. The public paid for the opportunity for him to provide entertainment but only he and his fellow club members may participate.

My frustration with the setup is that only the few are being served the public's largesse yet the public has no input as to how and what they are served. The free market system is more efficient at the process. To be fair we would need to fund practically anything that will gather a few thousand people at a time. Or we codify exactly what will be publicly funded and under what circumstances.

Or we could just vote on it.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

The downtown baseball stadium in San Francisco spurred development in an area that was struggling. Same with Denver and St. Louis and Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

I have walked back to my downtown hotel in each of these cities with hundreds of fans through an area of clubs and restaurants and new development.

Downtown baseball works.

Dont forget San Diego.  Petco park is beautiful, not to mention the weather there is amazing.  San Diego definitely did it right.  One of the best baseball stadiums I have been too. (and I have been to over 15).

Goodness, that ballpark is exactly the kind of design I am afraid we will get in that area of downtown.

what is wrong with Petco Park?  Petco park is beautiful inside and out. Have you ever been there? Gaslamp quarter, with the convention center and nice hotels is perfect.  The people that shop and stay there, its busy everynight of the week.  

quote: I could build a ****ing outhouse in downtown San Diego and it would be the best outhouse ever built because it is in San Diego.Tulsa != San Diego. Apples to oranges yadda yadda.

And BTW, the weather in San Diego is not all the great....too cold from the ocean and too sunny.

 

 I was simply adding a ballpark the list mentioned earlier where cities that built ballparks downtown had pretty good success at it.  In centerfield, they have a big grassy area for families to come out and I think for 4.50 a person, you can bring a blanket, food, etc and watch the game from there.

I never once compared Tulsa to San Diego, but since we are on the subject....I dont know your history, but every time I have been to San Diego (and it has been many) the weather has always been great.  From times going in Jan, March, June, July, Sept, etc.  I would take San Diego weather over Tulsa weather every time.  Guess we will agree to disagree.

[Wrinkle]

Thanks for all the pretty pictures, folks.

However, let's try to remember we're talking about a AA ballclub in a football market.

The existing ballpark seats, what, 7,500 when it's full up, a rarity in itself.

Any new park is not going to look anything like the pics provided.

Since those promoting this thing have oft stated something of the order of "Witchita has a new stadium", HERE, take a virtual tour of Eck Stadium as more similar to what we may get.