Drillers Downtown: Time Running Out

[RecycleMichael]

Here is a website that has pictures of all size ballparks in all size cities.

http://www.digitalballparks.com/

There are many good-looking AA ballparks to pick from. I particularly like the AA stadium in Jacksonville (click on southern League).

I think the right design will be a nice addition to downtown Tulsa.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Thanks for all the pretty pictures, folks.

However, let's try to remember we're talking about a AA ballclub in a football market.

The existing ballpark seats, what, 7,500 when it's full up, a rarity in itself.

Any new park is not going to look anything like the pics provided.

Since those promoting this thing have oft stated something of the order of "Witchita has a new stadium", HERE, take a virtual tour of Eck Stadium as more similar to what we may get.

Appreciate your contribution to the discussion, but both your premises are wrong.

Wichita's Lawrence DuMont Stadium is downtown, yes, but was built in 1934, renovated in 1990, and has a capacity of 6000.  No one is holding up Wichita as an example of a new ballpark revitalizing downtown, merely as another city with a ballpark in the city center.

Further, Drillers Stadium has a capacity of 11000.  When I worked there pitching peanuts, we had full capacity games around ten times per season, as well as several big crowds that didn't quite fill the place up but still filled my pockets with change (I made $0.25 per item sold, plus tips).

The franchise is very successful, and will be even more successful in a new location.  The idea that the Drillers don't attract enough people is another red herring.   Don't let it distract you from the bottom line: Downtown baseball works.  Jenks is stealing Tulsa's opportunity to get baseball downtown.  We need to try to make enough noise so that they don't succeed, and Tulsa does.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Thanks for all the pretty pictures, folks.

However, let's try to remember we're talking about a AA ballclub in a football market.

The existing ballpark seats, what, 7,500 when it's full up, a rarity in itself.

Any new park is not going to look anything like the pics provided.

Since those promoting this thing have oft stated something of the order of "Witchita has a new stadium", HERE, take a virtual tour of Eck Stadium as more similar to what we may get.

Appreciate your contribution to the discussion, but both your premises are wrong.

Wichita's Lawrence DuMont Stadium is downtown, yes, but was built in 1934, renovated in 1990, and has a capacity of 6000.  No one is holding up Wichita as an example of a new ballpark revitalizing downtown, merely as another city with a ballpark in the city center.

Further, Drillers Stadium has a capacity of 11000.  When I worked there pitching peanuts, we had full capacity games around ten times per season, as well as several big crowds that didn't quite fill the place up but still filled my pockets with change (I made $0.25 per item sold, plus tips).

The franchise is very successful, and will be even more successful in a new location.  The idea that the Drillers don't attract enough people is another red herring.   Don't let it distract you from the bottom line: Downtown baseball works.  Jenks is stealing Tulsa's opportunity to get baseball downtown.  We need to try to make enough noise so that they don't succeed, and Tulsa does.

Somehow, I find your "Downtown Baseball Works" and "No one is holding up Wichita as an example of a new ballpark revitalizing downtown, merely as another city with a ballpark in the city center." comments contradictory.

So, does it work, or just sometimes?

If just sometimes, what is it that makes it work sometimes and not others?

And finally, the hard one, why are we to believe Tulsa is one of those places where it will work?

I might also ask, "What is working?" and how will we know in advance that it will?

[Renaissance]

No contradiction.  If you read the whole thread, "downtown baseball works" is my attempt to be brief after having spelled things out clearly for months in various threads.

"Downtown baseball works" is a shorthand observation of the trend over the last 15 years of cities supporting the building of aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly minor league ballparks, in or adjacent to their downtowns.  Not only have these stadiums universally increased attendance, helping the franchise and making games more fun, but they have spurred surrounding development and helped revitalize declining city centers.

I don't have time to compile a comprehensive list here, but I defy you to find an example of an unsuccessful downtown baseball stadium development since 1990.  These ballparks are built to tap into nostalgia and neighborliness.  They have idiosyncratic designs that address the neighborhood and provide a focal point for visitors to an otherwise featureless, deserted urban district.  Above all, they bring baseball back to the heart of the city and thus the heart of the populace.  People flock to them, and thus flock to downtown.  

They work.  Downtown baseball works, and downtown baseball will work for Tulsa.  We must lend our voices to make it happen.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

No contradiction.  If you read the whole thread, "downtown baseball works" is my attempt to be brief after having spelled things out clearly for months in various threads.

"Downtown baseball works" is a shorthand observation of the trend over the last 15 years of cities supporting the building of aesthetically pleasing, pedestrian friendly minor league ballparks, in or adjacent to their downtowns.  Not only have these stadiums universally increased attendance, helping the franchise and making games more fun, but they have spurred surrounding development and helped revitalize declining city centers.

I don't have time to compile a comprehensive list here, but I defy you to find an example of an unsuccessful downtown baseball stadium development since 1990.  These ballparks are built to tap into nostalgia and neighborliness.  They have idiosyncratic designs that address the neighborhood and provide a focal point for visitors to an otherwise featureless, deserted urban district.  Above all, they bring baseball back to the heart of the city and thus the heart of the populace.  People flock to them, and thus flock to downtown.  

They work.  Downtown baseball works, and downtown baseball will work for Tulsa.  We must lend our voices to make it happen.

It doesnt really matter to me where the Drillers move.  Jenks is about 12 miles from 15th and Yale??  Its not like they are moving to Bentonville or anything!

I think it would be good for downtown, but I dont understand why so many people make it seem like it would be the end of the world if they moved out to Jenks.  Either way, I think a new baseball stadium would attract more people to come out and see a game and if they liked it, would probably come to see games regularly.  

I understand OKC is AAA and Tulsa is AA but their stadium and atmosphere is amazing.  You have bricktown, lots of bars, restaurants, to enjoy after the game.  Last time I went to a game there, I made the mistake of parking in the garage that overlooks the stadium, took us almost an hour to get down 4 stories.  

Anyways, hopefully they come up with a solution soon either way they decide to go.

[FOTD]

USR....

One Team Gets 26,000 Owners
-- All With a Vote on Who Plays
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119922623784960703.html?mod=todays_us_nonsub_marketplace
Fifth-Tier English Soccer Side Set to Become First Pro Team Run by an Online Community
By MAX COLCHESTER
January 2, 2008; Page B1


The question of who's the boss of England's small Ebbsfleet United soccer team is about to get interesting. If all goes as expected, the answer will soon be 26,000 people with Internet connections.

This month, via a Web site called myfootballclub.co.uk, those soccer fans are slated to take control of the minor-league team in southeast England. Members of the group, including some 1,500 people in the U.S., built up their takeover offer by each pledging $70.50. If the deal goes through as expected, a professional soccer team will be run by an online community for the first time
The probable new owners will manage the club, voting online to choose match lineups and buying new players. To help run the team, the fans will be able to view all the matches online and, after the game, receive statistics on how each player has performed. They will also get weekly updates from the team's head coach on how each player is doing during practice.

"Supporters can really get involved in the club. That's why they have joined us," says Roly Edwards, team secretary of Ebbsfleet United. Mr. Edwards says that with fresh funds Ebbsfleet will also be able to pay off its debts.

The online bid for Ebbsfleet comes as many soccer fans are feeling out of touch with a professional sport that has become a money-spinning machine of dizzying sponsorship deals and player transfer fees.

Last year, English first-division team Liverpool paid a club record of about $39.7 million for striker Fernando Torres. English player David Beckham is paid an estimated $10 million a year to play for the Los Angeles Galaxy, and makes an additional $20 million to $25 million a year in marketing deals.

Scandal hasn't helped. In 2006 in Italy, where soccer is the national sport, several teams were caught rigging matches in order to ensure lucrative television deals.

"As football gets bigger and as the sums of money get larger, fans are increasingly being marginalized," says Jon Keen, deputy chairman of the London-based Football Supporters' Federation, an organization of fans in England.

Mr. Keen also says rising prices for match tickets in the United Kingdom are forcing many fans to stay home and watch the games on television. As a result, attendance for some lower-division clubs in Britain is falling. It is important for these clubs not to disappear, says Mr. Keen, because they play an important part in developing young players and bringing local communities together.

The concept of fans owning soccer teams isn't new. Spanish soccer giants Real Madrid and Barcelona are owned by fans who pay to be members. In return the members can vote to appoint club presidents. However, only a few major soccer clubs are run this way, and fans don't actually have direct say in the way the teams are managed day-to-day.

Many soccer fans in Britain and elsewhere are taking their cue from myfootballclub.co.uk. In Denmark, some 3,000 people have signed up to the Web site Mitsuperligahold.dk and are considering taking over an amateur club in the Danish third-division league. In the U.S., mysoccerclubusa.com is trying to create a team from scratch using money raised online. The site hopes to have a team that can compete in the American fourth-tier league by 2009. Each fan must pay $50 to join and, again, fans will have a direct say in how the club is run.

In 2007, Israeli entrepreneur Moshe Hogeg bought Tel Aviv soccer team Hapoel Kiryat Shalom. Although fans don't own the team, they can go to a Website set up by Mr. Hogeg -- web2sport.com -- and vote for free on team selection and formation. Fans can then watch the game online and vote on substitutions during the match. So far 11,500 fans regularly log on to watch the matches. (In 2006, the Schaumburg Flyers, an independent minor-league baseball team near Chicago, allowed fans as part of an interactive online series to vote on lineups -- which left, on occasion, outfielders playing the infield.)

For Mr. Hogeg's soccer team, there have been a few glitches along the way, as well. During a recent match, fans from rival teams went onto the Web site and voted off Shalom's star striker. This cost the team the match. Another problem: Since fans like to stay home and watch the match interactively on their computers, stadium attendance has fallen. Web2sport is now planning to implement a voting system via text message, and Mr. Hogeg says he hopes to buy a club in England this year.

In some countries, the online effort hasn't taken off at all. In France, for example, Web site footballpro.fr started in September, hoping to imitate myfootballclub.co.uk's business model and raise $3.7 million from fans so it could buy a team. But not enough people were interested.

"We had 4,000 members, but the project was stagnating," says Vincent Legrand, one of the site's founders. "I think English fans are more passionate."

Dan Jones, a partner in the sports business group at accounting firm Deloitte & Touche, says Internet fans will never be able to match takeovers such as the roughly $1.6 billion purchase of Manchester United PLC in 2005.

Even for smaller teams, he says, long-term viability of Web-based ownership depends on whether fans are prepared to renew their annual membership once the novelty has worn off.

Ebbsfleet United, until last year known as Gravesend & Northfleet, has been a small-time team since it was founded in 1946. Yet in 2005, the club turned fully professional and competes in the fifth-tier league -- the highest level of what is called "nonleague football" in England. The team, which plays at its Stonebridge Road stadium, has a loyal following of about 1,000 fans who regularly attend home matches.

But the company recently ran into financial trouble. Mr. Edwards declined to give details, but said the team has a "significant" debt. That has made it difficult lately to come up with the $3 million he estimates it takes to operate the team every year. Some $600,000 to $800,000 a year goes toward wages.

The team makes about $12,000 to $16,000 per match in gate receipts, and has some sponsorship deals as well. "We needed a millionaire to come along or we would have dropped down in the league," he says.

Mr. Edwards says he was listening to the radio one day when he heard about myfootballclub.co.uk, which was offering to help fans take over a club.

Ebbsfleet United and eight other teams put their names forward as potential takeover targets. Myfootballclub.co.uk officials say they chose Ebbsfleet because the team had good transport links and a manageable debt.

Though some are skeptical about Internet ownership, most Ebbsfleet supporters are delighted. "As long as it helps keep the club full-time professional, then I think it can only do good," says Shaun Crisp, a former Ebbsfleet player who has supported the team since 1960.

Team manager Liam Daish -- a former center-back player for the Irish national team -- is a little nervous, however. "I just hope the members are going to trust my judgment."

[USRufnex]

Fine... still trying to get the soccer site up online... now this...

just for that FOTD... send me massive sums of money, and you'll get an autographed print of... circa 1978...

(edit:  deleted a really large pic of Chris Lincoln and Bob Carpenter from KTUL broadcast of Tulsa vs. Minnesota)

http://www.active.com/soccer/Articles/Drew_Carey_Wants_Fans_Making_Decisions.htm

Q:  And which city, in 1994, came up with more season ticket deposits for a potential Major League Soccer team, Seattle or Tulsa???

A:  Tulsa.

---- oops.  sorry to thread jack...

hey, I'm glad the Drillers have a plan B...
but accusing Jenks of "stealing the Drillers" is disingenuous... if Tulsa comes up with a better plan, mo' power to 'em... then Jenks can host a team that isn't playing minor league ball against Texas League division rivals Springdale, Springfield and Little Rock umpteen times per year...

Wichita lost their team because they had poor fan support, but WSU's college baseball team has good support... the Drillers will be fine... especially with MLB paying their salaries...

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by inteller

hahahaha.....I laugh at the futile grasping of straws.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Ignorance is bliss, so I can see why you're giddy.

Still laughing, inteller?

http://tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8582

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

As posted in the thread on the River District:  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071218_1_A19_hAfte02577

Time's up.  Seems almost certain that Lamson takes the Drillers out of the city.  What has Tulsa done to hand him a viable option?  Nothing.  Sad day for downtown.  We see what happens in a leadership vacuum.  This sickens me.

Don Himmelfarb: don't let the door hit you on the way out.  Take your vague, empty promises elsewhere.

Should it become necessary for you to eat those words, which I think will happen, would you prefer mustard or mayo?

I'll take them with some horseradish on rye.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. But I'm trying to avoid being a starry-eyed optimist on this one. I would like to believe that there are active machinations behind the scenes that involve a beautiful new stadium on 2nd Street. Without knowing any inside information, and given what I've seen this administration produce thus far, though, I'll be happily surprised if so much as a new rendering for an East End/Blue Dome stadium is shown publicly in the next 90 days.

EDIT: All I need to give Himmelfarb and Taylor the benefit of the doubt is a statement to the effect of: "The City of Tulsa is actively working on alternative stadium plans that will keep the Drillers in Tulsa and will present them publicly when they are ready." Just let us, and Chuck, know that the City is trying, so we can continue to keep up the public pressure. I'm not going to keep writing emails if Tulsa isn't going to give the team a viable option.

Delicious.  I love eating my words, especially with horseradish.
 
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080122_1__Mayor23086

The minimum I begged for is exactly what they gave us.  No plans yet, but a public guarantee that the city is doing their best.  Plus, to show that they mean it, the City now has an exclusive purchase option on the best possible stadium parcel and exclusive negotiating rights with the team for the next four months.

It's kind of like a punt, but a damn good one, like down to the other team's 1 yard line.  City of Tulsa now has as much momentum as they could gather, and it's public.  The hue and cry from a small group of us managed to get Lamson's attention, and he is giving downtown one last chance.  I'm going to get behind it 100%.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

As posted in the thread on the River District:  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071218_1_A19_hAfte02577

Time's up.  Seems almost certain that Lamson takes the Drillers out of the city.  What has Tulsa done to hand him a viable option?  Nothing.  Sad day for downtown.  We see what happens in a leadership vacuum.  This sickens me.

Don Himmelfarb: don't let the door hit you on the way out.  Take your vague, empty promises elsewhere.

Should it become necessary for you to eat those words, which I think will happen, would you prefer mustard or mayo?

I'll take them with some horseradish on rye.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. But I'm trying to avoid being a starry-eyed optimist on this one. I would like to believe that there are active machinations behind the scenes that involve a beautiful new stadium on 2nd Street. Without knowing any inside information, and given what I've seen this administration produce thus far, though, I'll be happily surprised if so much as a new rendering for an East End/Blue Dome stadium is shown publicly in the next 90 days.

EDIT: All I need to give Himmelfarb and Taylor the benefit of the doubt is a statement to the effect of: "The City of Tulsa is actively working on alternative stadium plans that will keep the Drillers in Tulsa and will present them publicly when they are ready." Just let us, and Chuck, know that the City is trying, so we can continue to keep up the public pressure. I'm not going to keep writing emails if Tulsa isn't going to give the team a viable option.

Delicious.  I love eating my words, especially with horseradish.
 
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080122_1__Mayor23086

The minimum I begged for is exactly what they gave us.  No plans yet, but a public guarantee that the city is doing their best.  Plus, to show that they mean it, the City now has an exclusive purchase option on the best possible stadium parcel and exclusive negotiating rights with the team for the next four months.

It's kind of like a punt, but a damn good one, like down to the other team's 1 yard line.  City of Tulsa now has as much momentum as they could gather, and it's public.  The hue and cry from a small group of us managed to get Lamson's attention, and he is giving downtown one last chance.  I'm going to get behind it 100%.

Floyd, you're a great poster and I enjoy your comments a lot, so I wasn't going to dredge this up... []

But let the record show you have a great deal of integrity to bring this back up yourself. You're alright, man. []

[Renaissance]

What can I say.  I never stopped being a cheerleader for downtown baseball--I just stopped believing Taylor and Himmelfarb could make it happen.  I'm quite pleased to be wrong.

[USRufnex]

Actually, both Taylor and Himmelfarb have made some very strong statements on behalf of keeping the Drillers in the city of Tulsa.

It was never a matter of "if" the city would have a proposal... it has been a matter of "when."

Right now, this looks like a proposal for a proposal... so this announcement is that Tulsa's gonna have a proposal of some sort in the next four months... [}:)]

[EricP]

I don't even really CARE about the Drillers, but you have admit that letting the team get sucked away to Jenks would just be a sad, sad day for Tulsa. Jenks, Broken Arrow, 71st and 169 area and other parts of town can take care of themselves with smaller developments. To let downtown Tulsa fall any further into disrepair and despair would be to completely give in to this suburban crap and what used to be a really cool downtown area. Tulsa's suburbs don't need revitalization and more money, they will always be where people live and shop.. downtown needs something more.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by EricP

I don't even really CARE about the Drillers, but you have admit that letting the team get sucked away to Jenks would just be a sad, sad day for Tulsa. Jenks, Broken Arrow, 71st and 169 area and other parts of town can take care of themselves with smaller developments. To let downtown Tulsa fall any further into disrepair and despair would be to completely give in to this suburban crap and what used to be a really cool downtown area. Tulsa's suburbs don't need revitalization and more money, they will always be where people live and shop.. downtown needs something more.

Aaactually the next generation may very well thank us for revitalizing downtown. Suburbs fall into decay and arent always the "nice" places to live. Look at older places back east or in Europe. Especially Paris where you hear about the suburban riots and poverty while the wealthy live in the cities. Plus older cities back east have the bad "inner ring of suburbs", then the "good outer rings". All our current suburbs are the first generation or ring of growth that will then be followed by the next ring. That first ring, our current suburbs, will turn into the future "bad areas". Its up to us to start the rebirth of growth in the center that will then radiate outwards once again. It seems to be an inevitable, repeating cycle.

Our children or grandchildren may be thankful one day that they have a beautiful city to go to and get away from the nasty, crime ridden suburbs.