Monstrosity on 25th street

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by izmophonik

...I read the whole thread.  This really seems like a case of someone that just needs to mind their own business.  The poster doesn't even live on that street and likely not in that neighborhood.  The picture of that house looks like another $2,500.00 per year in property taxes going to the City of Tulsa.  Nothing more or less.

Thats enlightnened. "It only matters if its on my immediate street."? And whether it makes more taxes?

I believe different neighborhoods can have a mix of styles, but everything has its limits. Good taste can not be "zoned", but variety can be wisely done so that a structure improves an areas appearance and character rather than hurting it.  

I can show you many examples of developments that have destroyed the character of an area and made the property values go down. Is that what we want?

If we can agree that there are good types of development, height, distance from street, amount of parking, walls, wall planes, sidewalks, materials, etc.  Then logically there must be examples of bad development.

Do you think there are good ways to develop or redevelop? No examples of bad development?  That it doesnt matter unless its next to you?

[Kenosha]

quote: I believe different neighborhoods can have a mix of styles, but everything has its limits. Good taste can not be "zoned", but variety can be wisely done so that a structure improves an areas appearance and character rather than hurting it.  

I would like to how this can be accomplished if you aren't regulating taste.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by yayaya

Somebody is building a 1 bedroom house on 25th street east of Lewis.  It has a 4 car garage, and looks to be 3 stories high.  Workers said that the top floor is going to have a dj booth and dance floor, and that the tops of the garages were being reinforced so people could dance on them....WHERE IS PRESERVE MIDTOWN ON THIS THING... I walked past the thing last week and about threw up

How dare this property owner do what he wants with his or her property...Doesn't this person know that there is no such thing as individualism.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by guido911



How dare this property owner do what he wants with his or her property...Doesn't this person know that there is no such thing as individualism.

I don't think they know what "individualism" means..... They vote the "Party Line" as a Patriotic, American, individual should...

[}:)]

Just kidding.....[]

How do you "Legislate" good taste?

You don't...

If you could DT Tulsa would not have as many parking lots as it does...

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by guido911



How dare this property owner do what he wants with his or her property...Doesn't this person know that there is no such thing as individualism.

I don't think they know what "individualism" means..... They vote the "Party Line" as a Patriotic, American, individual should...

[}:)]

Just kidding.....[]

How do you "Legislate" good taste?

You don't...

If you could DT Tulsa would not have as many parking lots as it does...

Well said

[OurTulsa]

quote:Originally posted by yayaya

My friend protested and got the building stopped-if you do care, watch the incog list and go down and protest when the builder asks for a variance
I am going to try to go-the next meeting will be held Tuesday at 1
It is WAY over the height restriction-

Didn't and don't see it on the BOA's agenda.  http://www.incog.org/City%20of%20Tulsa%20BOA/City%20of%20Tulsa%20Board%20of%20Adjustment.htm

I don't mind a little architectural diversity out there in a neighborhood as long as the house adheres to basic principals like orientation, contributing to the important relationship a house has in a neighborhood, relative scale (I don't think the juxtaposition of one and three story houses is that bad if treated properly), and generally maintaining the streetscape.  
I don't like the garages located in front of the house essentially sealing off any human presence from the neighborhood.  (Assuming that no opaque entry gate is erected between the garages) It helps that there is a direct line between the street and the front door.  Anytime a house presents a majority blank wall to a neighborhood though its owners might as well be saying thanks a bunch for allowing us to put up stakes around you but we have no trust or interest in participating in this neighborhood thing.

[Rose]

Right on Kenosha, Guido911, & Our Tulsa.  I agree 100%.

[TheArtist]

How do you legislate good taste?....  I suppose I could dig around online and find out. But am not in the mood to do that at the moment lol. But "good taste" or more specifically, good design can be had. It has to exist because I have been to so many places in the country where it is done.  

Form Based Codes are one way to steer new development in a preferred direction. Form Based Codes are more concerned with the appearance and "form" of a structure, than with what is inside.  FBC's hold that..."Design is more important than use".

Form-Based codes are potentially much easier for the public and developers to interpret because they make use of graphics to illustrate what is desired. Examples and preferred solutions are given so that developers and individuals have an idea of what is wanted, not a list of rules saying what is not wanted.


Form-based codes can guide the form and appearance of new
development through the use of such techniques as pattern books, which identify
existing characteristics such as architectural style and elements that residents
value.  Such a pattern book can encourage infill development and renovations of and additions
to existing buildings to take inspiration from the existing context without mimicking
it. Also, design guidelines provide detailed guidance for the appearance of such features as
architectural elements (roofs, porches, doors, lighting); site design (relationship to
the street, location of accessory structures); landscape elements (trees, irrigation,
public art); and streetscape improvements. They are typically intended to
encourage good design while allowing for some flexible interpretation to avoid
repetitive and monotonous structures.


This taken from a website showing the experience another city had with form based codes....


Results: Developer Reviews
• After initial confusion, the process has become easier
to understand
• Local architects understood it first, and have worked
to develop contextual plans
• Department advising has helped, but a more formal
design review, particularly for by-right projects may
be required
• Developers have generally been more successful
selling projects at a premium by following design
recommendations
• While abutters still oppose projects, there is less fear
of poorly designed infill
• Neighborhood groups recognize that we had a design
problem, not a density problem.

http://www.mass.gov/envir/pdfs/sgconf_A3_proakis.pdf

Form-based codes can present various options to follow for common projects such as garages, second story additions... Use of optional form-based codes can create a clearer, simpler, less expensive application process for some applicants, expand staff review of some projects and lighten case load.

I have been to many areas of the country where cities have areas, if not the whole city and surrounding areas as well, where there are regulations that go far beyond anything Form Based Codes require. I know "good taste" can be regulated. In Santa Fe, no building can be taller than a particular church in their downtown. The buildings must be of a specific type, you choose from a select color pallet, etc. The local grocery store, Mc Donalds, everything fits those regulations. Even miles outside the city you see "variations on a theme" following those prescriptions. There are other cities that do the same but with radically different styles.

Many places require garages be to the side or in back.  I have met people who have come to Tulsa who are shocked, the idea of having garages in front is an alien idea to them, its not what they are used to seeing. Yet if we mention regulating that here we are "stifiling individualism" or trying to enforce "good taste"?

This has some general examples of Form Based Codes.

http://cityofsacramento.org/dsd/planning/urban-design/form-based-codes/documents/Forms-Based-Codes-Report.pdf

A primary element of this discussion is respect for local traditions and customs, the importance attached to good relations with immediate neighbors, and with others in the neighborhood, that foster a sense of community. Such good relations, based on trust and mutual respect, translate into "codes guiding construction that affects neighbors".

Change should be accepted as natural and healthy. In the face of ongoing change, it is helpful, even necessary, to maintain some  equilibrium in the environment we share. In other words, Balance the change with a dose of agreed upon rules, hopes and expectations. Its not "either, or", its neighbors, people in a shared community, getting together and finding a way to strike a balance between both.

Also, without codes urban municipalities can tend to suffer from disinvestment. The market naturally seeks stable investment environments. The private codes you see with homeowners associations, the guidelines of office parks,  the rules of shopping centers, etc. create predictable outcomes that lure investment away from older cities and areas that do not have them. Codes level the playing field for the inevitable competition.

I would really encourage you to look around on the net and get a feel for what Form Based Codes is about.  I have run across some really neat examples, "wish I had kept them to show you". I have seen some incredibly creative examples of new infill that is different, yet compliments its neighbors. I wish I had saved this pic of some infill in a neighborhood of bungalows. Some were 3 stories tall but still fit because they followed a basic prescription of the rooflines, wall planes, scale, set-backs etc. They were great additions to an old neighborhood. They did not at all take away from the character, they enhanced the neighborhood imo. The individual can express their "individuality" in many creative ways within the context of FBC's. One is already limited in many ways yet can still find infinite ways to express individuality.  FBCs do not want cookie cutter developments, people will naturally find creative ways within the given framework to be unique.  Also a neighborhood can elect to have different types of FBCs, it can encourage huge variety from, Tuscan to, Gothic, to Frank Lloyd Wright and contemporary,,,,yet within a group of agreed upon ideals of, wall plane sizes, building massing, height restrictions, set backs, etc. Resulting in very ecclectic but yet complimentary structures.

[yayaya]

That thing is getting worse-and no, I don't live on the street, but hate that some ego driven weirdo is building a a bedroom dance hall on a street with kids.  I HOPE this guy gets a ton of money sunk in the thing and is forced to pay a lot to take it down to height.
he apparently is some plaintiff atty

[booWorld]

Are you certain it's higher than 35 feet as defined in the Zoning Code?  I'm guessing from the photo that it's less than 35 feet high, based on the size of the garage door openings (if they are normal height garage doors).  It's difficult to get a sense of scale from the photo.

[NellieBly]

This guy bought a lot behind my dad and proceeded to knock down the old house and started building before getting any permits. He was also completely unaware that the lot sat on top of a huge storm sewer that he could not build on top of. He got as far as a two foot tall slab and was forced to shut down due to code violations. He overpaid for the lot and as far as I know he is trying to sell it. The problem for developers like him, the new house can not be larger than the original house due to the easement.

He is an idiot.

[midtownnewbie]

quote:Originally posted by NellieBly

This guy bought a lot behind my dad and proceeded to knock down the old house and started building before getting any permits.

Is that the lot on Cincinnati about 1 block north of Hazel?

[TheArtist]

The neighbors property values just dropped like a rock. I wouldn't want to live in a cozy, old neighborhood and look out my window and see that.

[Kenosha]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

The neighbors property values just dropped like a rock. I wouldn't want to live in a cozy, old neighborhood and look out my window and see that.

Enough with the hyperbole.  I doubt that a $500,000 to $750,000 house is going to hurt the comps in that area, regardless of what it looks like.  It may be a monstrosity, but there is zero evidence that property values will be affected negatively.

[dsjeffries]

I took a tour of some neighborhoods on my way home from 41st & Yale tonight and finally found the monstrosity (I kept forgetting where it was).  Before I found it, I found several other examples just as hideous.  I rooted for the PreserveMidtown people before, and now, after having seen what neighborhood destruction looks like, I want to give them all a hug.

The eastern neighbor // The western neighbor


The monster





Just a few blocks from the Great White Whale, at 26th & Columbia, is this.  I saw the turret above a house from a few blocks away:



The neighbors




Another one at 25th & Columbia/Birmingham?:

McAnywhereville


Across the street



East of that, I was driving north and saw this one from 3 blocks away:

Notice the house on the left.

Here's the house behind the McAwful:



And here's another future teardown going in:


And here are the neighbors: