Bates offers Constructive Criticism

[Double A]

This is just one area of county government that is out sourced with a lack of accountability to sworn officers. Bates should do a follow up on the  relationship between PMG and the County. I think the time for a grand jury investigation into Tulsa County Government is long overdue. The scandal with Bell's and ORU alone ought to be enough to warrant it. At this point, it might be the only way to get an honest, straight, answer from our County government. If they have not lied and have nothing to hide, they should welcome it.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Bates and I have been into it on this very board before.  More than a few times I have chimed in against his ideas in other threads.  He is ultra conservative, a conspiracy theorist, and has a heightened sense of self worth.

But he does a good job.  

I do a horrible job of keeping our politicians on the straight and narrow.  I have come to believe that there is a small group (who meat once a year at  secret meeting place in Colorado known as, the Meadows) who have their hands in nearly everything that happens in Tulsa.  AND that they cash in on most of it.  

So what do I do?  I sit back and complain and vote in the next insider in a few years.

Kudos on at least being a thorn in the side of the powers that be.  I don't think I agree with the extent of the conspiracy, but I do think any college educated citizen with internet access should be able to find the answers to his questions on the county website (you cant).  Without transparency, we need Michael Bates to keep the heat on.

Please, expand on the annual meeting in the Meadows of our local ruling Cabal...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Bates and I have been into it on this very board before.  More than a few times I have chimed in against his ideas in other threads.  He is ultra conservative, a conspiracy theorist, and has a heightened sense of self worth.

But he does a good job.  

I do a horrible job of keeping our politicians on the straight and narrow.  I have come to believe that there is a small group (who meat once a year at  secret meeting place in Colorado known as, the Meadows) who have their hands in nearly everything that happens in Tulsa.  AND that they cash in on most of it.  

So what do I do?  I sit back and complain and vote in the next insider in a few years.

Kudos on at least being a thorn in the side of the powers that be.  I don't think I agree with the extent of the conspiracy, but I do think any college educated citizen with internet access should be able to find the answers to his questions on the county website (you cant).  Without transparency, we need Michael Bates to keep the heat on.

Please, expand on the annual meeting in the Meadows of our local ruling Cabal...

You want to know if you can hide out on the grassy knoll, don't you? []

CF- call me a fan.  Your last sentence was spot-on.  Aside from Bates and Ervin, who else follows government closely in the print media?  P.J. Lasek?  She's a soft-baller if there ever was one.

[YoungTulsan]

Is it true that they projected the tax collections to be flat over 13 years?  If so, how could there NOT be a surplus?

If money dissapears, where does it go?  Has the arena secretly gone past the $200 million mark with no public announcement of such?

Perhaps there is extra money, but it is not technically a "surplus" until the end of the game.  Right now, it is merely "contigency" since there could always be a downturn in tax collections if we have a bad recession in the next 8 or 9 years?  It seems like we've been paying this tax forever, but we are less than 1/3rd of the way into its' collection period.  If this reason (uncertain future of tax collections) is the reason they won't call the surplus a surplus, they should just come out bluntly and state it.  If, in the year 2013 we appear to be at a point where we can either end the tax or have $200 million in surplus funds, maybe we could have a vote about it then.

[Conan71]

I don't know about "flat" but I do recall Counselor Dick saying they were "conservative" on collection estimates prior to the vote on V-2025.

I'm starting to become as disappointed with Fred Perry as I am with Randi Miller.  One almost feels as if Wilbert Collins and Bob Dick are still running the commission.  It's pretty much business-as-usual.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Well, the first reason the Commissioners wouldn't like him is that he opposed them on one of the biggest public projects this county has ever seen.

It is interesting that Bates continues to forward this storyline, i.e., that the County is sitting on mountains of money and has enough V2025 surplus to do whatever they want.  He's been harping about huge surpluses since before the V2025 vote.  

It apparently doesn't matter that EVERYBODY at the County is sick to death of telling him the same thing over and over and over.  I've seen and heard this more times than I can count...along the lines of, "the county does not have a surplus, does not expect to have a large surplus, and will not know, one way or another, for a long time whether a surplus exists".  That's what they have been saying, anyway.

Refusing to accept the answers that have been handed to you is one thing.  I say that Michael should doggedly pursue the facts.   So, what has he done?  Has he filed any Freedom of Information Act requests?  Has he sued the county?  Has he done ANYTHING to find out the facts, or is he simply publishing rumors?

I get it.  He's not a journalist.  He doesn't know how to investigate and he's not obliged to learn.  But he's been holding onto this "money-mountain" theory for a long time now, and it ain't going anywhere.

Michael Bates asked a simple set of questions of the Tulsa County Fiscal Officer Mr. Smith:

1. How many bank accounts hold sales tax proceeds or bond proceeds from Vision 2025? Where are the accounts held, and how much money is in each account?

2. What is the schedule for repayment for each Vision 2025 bond issue?

3. How much Vision 2025 money has been committed but has yet to be paid out? For each obligation, how much is due and when?

For the Tulsa County Fiscal Officer NOT to readily have at hand the information to answer these very basic public accountability questions is reflective of the unaccountable, patronage dumping ground, good-old-boy County Ring of mediocrity also know as Oklahoma county government.

As to Mr. Bates' courses of action, I think he has:

1)  A full-time job.
2)  Provides a weekly OPINION column to UTW.
3)  Provides a weekly radio OPINION on KFAQ-AM.
4)  Publishes an active Weblog at www.batesline.com
5)  Is actually married and is raising a young family.

As a certified TulsaNow.net Mud-Slinger, can you claim ANY of those five foregoing accomplishments?

I do not think that Bates has EVER claimed to be a "journalist", unlike the majority of the reporters from the AGENDA-DRIVEN Lorton's World claiming journalist credentials to which their palpable bias negates their bogus claim to any professional standing.

They work as Propaganda Kommandos for the local Lorton Oligarchs Daily Werker Proganda Ministry.
 
Bates is one of the few Seekers-after-the-Truth to populate local Public Policy discussion.

TulsaMetroChamberPots TulsanNow Echo Chamber detractors hardly qualify as Seekers-after-the-Truth........

1.  I have a full-time job.
2.  I provide DAILY opinions on TulsaNow.Net
3.  I give DAILY opinions to my wife and co-workers.
4.  Sorry, don't have a blog.
5.  I'm married with a family.

Michael Bates - let's get into business together!

[Rico]

Bates has also been known to give advice to Politicians........



[}:)]

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Please, expand on the annual meeting in the Meadows of our local ruling Cabal...

Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers [and Tulsa], and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows. [They include] The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"

/sry if you missed the reference and thought I was mad.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Please, expand on the annual meeting in the Meadows of our local ruling Cabal...

Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers [and Tulsa], and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows. [They include] The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"

/sry if you missed the reference and thought I was mad.

Oh, I think the local ruling Oligarchy's henchmen just meet periodically at Southern Hills Country Club, in one of the many meeting rooms, to plan their pocket-fleecing strategies on behalf of their benefactors.

A working lunch, so to speak.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Oh, I think the local ruling Oligarchy's henchmen just meet periodically at Southern Hills Country Club,...

No. We meet at the Coney Islander near TU.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder




/sry if you missed the reference and thought I was mad.

I missed the reference, so did FB.  But his spit-take reaction was TN classic.  Gotta love a conspiracy theory, right FB?

You see, I don't doubt for a minute that the County is broken.  You can read the World and figure that one out:  responsible people forwarding boob pics; the Fairgrounds Authority "chasing away" the flea market; the Bell's parking lot; the "harm" created between the County and city by the  fairgrounds annexation; Miller talking out of both sides of her mouth when she tells Taylor to get "lean and mean" while jacking her own budget 17% in one year.  Sheesh, they are running a budget about 1/10th the size of the city's, and in so doing managing to make the city look pretty competent by way of comparison.  They've also managed to anger just about everybody in the County.  If you think that the River tax was serious, wait until the flea market thing heats up.

The deal with the surplus has already been made clear many times.  If projections hold up there will  be one.  So, what?  If the surplus comes it'll be years and years from now.  And, with the price of construction outpacing inflation, it'd be tragically stupid to start spending this money on a scaled-down River Project, as Michael has suggested.

Michael seems to want to continue to advance this notion that we can get a River project now using Vision 2025 money.  That's fiscally irresponsible.  To Kenosha's point, it's also vain.  Sure, he cooked up the idea. Sure, he made a promise.  But, maybe he should just consider it for what it was, a red herring tossed in there to confuse a few people who might have otherwise voted yes.  There are worse things than broken promises...actually delivering on a bad idea comes to mind.

And, even if the rumors he printed about secret meetings with Inhofe are true, it doesn't make the idea a good one.  Is the County just as willing as Michael to throw caution to the wind?  Maybe.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Oh, I think the local ruling Oligarchy's henchmen just meet periodically at Southern Hills Country Club,...

No. We meet at the Coney Islander near TU.

Clever camouflage.

[Conan71]

Actually CL, it is a fact there have been private meetings on the "plan B" river project.  Bates can take credit for being the first one to publish the idea that the river could be done now with surplus, but he's hardly the one who "cooked up that idea".  The county is, in fact, looking at ways to move forward utilizing V-2025 funds.

There hasn't been a good nor straight answer out of the county on surpluses or the lack thereof.  There's been a total lack of specificity, just like the lack of specificity in what we were going to get with their $283mm slush fund.  Telling a reporter or op/ed guy or whatever you want to call him "there is no surplus" is not a legit answer.  I don't blame him for digging further to find out exactly how they arrive at that conclusion, and I'm thankful he has.

Why aren't you pissed off that our county commissioners don't know the honest answer or either won't give an honest answer on the funding picture?  That's YOUR money they are shepherding.

Bates, as a citizen, just like you and I has a right to call upon an elected official and ask for simple figures.  He's also got a right to let the rest of the taxpayers know that he's been stone-walled.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Actually CL, it is a fact there have been private meetings on the "plan B" river project.  Bates can take credit for being the first one to publish the idea that the river could be done now with surplus, but he's hardly the one who "cooked up that idea".  The county is, in fact, looking at ways to move forward utilizing V-2025 funds.

There hasn't been a good nor straight answer out of the county on surpluses or the lack thereof.  There's been a total lack of specificity, just like the lack of specificity in what we were going to get with their $283mm slush fund.  Telling a reporter or op/ed guy or whatever you want to call him "there is no surplus" is not a legit answer.  I don't blame him for digging further to find out exactly how they arrive at that conclusion, and I'm thankful he has.

Why aren't you pissed off that our county commissioners don't know the honest answer or either won't give an honest answer on the funding picture?  That's YOUR money they are shepherding.

Bates, as a citizen, just like you and I has a right to call upon an elected official and ask for simple figures.  He's also got a right to let the rest of the taxpayers know that he's been stone-walled.

I have no doubt that Inhofe is looking for a way to leverage his $50 mill., and so, I'm sure that people are kicking around all kinds of "Plan B's", for many reasons.  But, don't be a revisionist.  The idea of using the surplus (prematurely) came from the "Vote No" people, and the County people said basically what I'm saying now, that it's dumb stuff to spend money on new projects before we have completed what we promised.  Watch the exchanges between Eagleton and Pearcy on the video debate on this very home page.

As for the surplus itself, go read the Tulsa World or watch the video.  The story has been pretty darn consistent.  There is a projected budget surplus; that's not the same as money in the bank, wouldn't you agree?  Regardless of cash flow, it's not actually a surplus until the projects we voted on in Vision 2025 are built, right?  They ain't built.  So, saying "there is no surplus" may not be the answer you (or Michael) want to hear, but it may be accurate nonetheless.

Sure, specificity is something we should demand from government.  So, why doesn't Bates (or Urban Tulsa, if he's too busy) send the County an FOI request?  Better question, why is Bates resorting to vague rumors to prove his point?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Actually CL, it is a fact there have been private meetings on the "plan B" river project.  Bates can take credit for being the first one to publish the idea that the river could be done now with surplus, but he's hardly the one who "cooked up that idea".  The county is, in fact, looking at ways to move forward utilizing V-2025 funds.

There hasn't been a good nor straight answer out of the county on surpluses or the lack thereof.  There's been a total lack of specificity, just like the lack of specificity in what we were going to get with their $283mm slush fund.  Telling a reporter or op/ed guy or whatever you want to call him "there is no surplus" is not a legit answer.  I don't blame him for digging further to find out exactly how they arrive at that conclusion, and I'm thankful he has.

Why aren't you pissed off that our county commissioners don't know the honest answer or either won't give an honest answer on the funding picture?  That's YOUR money they are shepherding.

Bates, as a citizen, just like you and I has a right to call upon an elected official and ask for simple figures.  He's also got a right to let the rest of the taxpayers know that he's been stone-walled.

I have no doubt that Inhofe is looking for a way to leverage his $50 mill., and so, I'm sure that people are kicking around all kinds of "Plan B's", for many reasons.  But, don't be a revisionist.  The idea of using the surplus (prematurely) came from the "Vote No" people, and the County people said basically what I'm saying now, that it's dumb stuff to spend money on new projects before we have completed what we promised.  Watch the exchanges between Eagleton and Pearcy on the video debate on this very home page.

As for the surplus itself, go read the Tulsa World or watch the video.  The story has been pretty darn consistent.  There is a projected budget surplus; that's not the same as money in the bank, wouldn't you agree?  Regardless of cash flow, it's not actually a surplus until the projects we voted on in Vision 2025 are built, right?  They ain't built.  So, saying "there is no surplus" may not be the answer you (or Michael) want to hear, but it may be accurate nonetheless.

Sure, specificity is something we should demand from government.  So, why doesn't Bates (or Urban Tulsa, if he's too busy) send the County an FOI request?  Better question, why is Bates resorting to vague rumors to prove his point?

And, a great deal of the real surplus was and is now devoted to a project that was promised to be completely funded by 2025, the arena. Blame LaFortune for choosing a design that could not be built for the alloted budget if you want, but then the same people talking about using only the potential surplus for the river are the ones that wanted the man responsible for the current lack of a surplus to reelected.