'Complete Our Streets' Committee Recommendations

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Okay, now that I got that bit of sarcasm out of the way that I've been saving up since last July, I was kinda surprised at the number at first.  But if we've been about $1bn behind on maintenance and they are looking at expansion as well, $1.6 sounds about right.  It's still a shot in the dark as there's not near enough time to put a finite figure on it.

That's fine though, as long as they have an on-going revenue source identified and not some tax which has to renew every x amount of years, that's all good work.  It's needed.

Now all they need to do is promote Bob Dick as the street Czar so Friendly Bear will have plenty of reason to keep posting here.

[]

The return of Dirty Bob Dick would definitely bring the Bear out of hibernation.

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by cks511

Is it me or does anyone else take take exception to the paragraph about the river tax? LOL!  I'll knee jerk if I wanna!

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/CityServices/Streets/documents/ReportofFinanceCommittee_1_000.pdf

We have bigger priorities than streets.  Let's do the river first.

[}:)]

Post of the year . . . .

[brunoflipper]

and now we have confirmation of what guessed two months back... the "no river tax" people are indeed "no ANY tax" people...

and now their going to claim they wont pay for it because the "gub'mint" has wasted all our money and the politicians neglect caused the streets to fall apart? pancakes?

this city is falling apart and you tools dont want to pay for ANYTHING...
just change your slogan to "Vote No On Tulsa" and you'll have it alll covered...

if this fails, this town will rapidly become a ****-hole...

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

and now we have confirmation of what guessed two months back... the "no river tax" people are indeed "no ANY tax" people...

and now their going to claim they wont pay for it because the "gub'mint" has wasted all our money and the politicians neglect caused the streets to fall apart? pancakes?

this city is falling apart and you tools dont want to pay for ANYTHING...
just change your slogan to "Vote No On Tulsa" and you'll have it alll covered...

if this fails, this town will rapidly become a ****-hole...

Bruno, unless there is some way the money can be squandered elsewhere other than roads, I'll vote for the taxes.  Hopefully, the wording on city ballots isn't as full of back-door escape routes as county ballots.

[midtownnewbie]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

and now we have confirmation of what guessed two months back... the "no river tax" people are indeed "no ANY tax" people...

and now their going to claim they wont pay for it because the "gub'mint" has wasted all our money and the politicians neglect caused the streets to fall apart? pancakes?

this city is falling apart and you tools dont want to pay for ANYTHING...
just change your slogan to "Vote No On Tulsa" and you'll have it alll covered...

if this fails, this town will rapidly become a ****-hole...

+1

[Rico]

Something has to be done...

It would be nice to drive through town on roads similar to the Tisdale Expressway...

It is a shame the City could not place the "River Development and Streets" under one City ballot...

A permanent 1/2 penny for streets and a dissolving cost for "River Development"..

IMO that would have had a better chance of becoming reality..

Here is an article regarding Tulsa, from an Oklahoma City news article "Here's why we are Rooting for Downtown Tulsa"

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

and now we have confirmation of what guessed two months back... the "no river tax" people are indeed "no ANY tax" people...

and now their going to claim they wont pay for it because the "gub'mint" has wasted all our money and the politicians neglect caused the streets to fall apart? pancakes?

this city is falling apart and you tools dont want to pay for ANYTHING...
just change your slogan to "Vote No On Tulsa" and you'll have it alll covered...

if this fails, this town will rapidly become a ****-hole...

Are you trying to say the 'vote no people' pay NO TAXES.  Our taxes are at historically high levels and look at the trouble we're in.  

Once I'm convinced that tax money doesn't get wasted on pet projects (I work for the government, I know) and we are at wits ends to pay for anything, then I'll consider an additional tax.  But let me promise you something, WE AIN'T THERE YET.  FAR FROM IT.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

and now we have confirmation of what guessed two months back... the "no river tax" people are indeed "no ANY tax" people...

and now their going to claim they wont pay for it because the "gub'mint" has wasted all our money and the politicians neglect caused the streets to fall apart? pancakes?

this city is falling apart and you tools dont want to pay for ANYTHING...
just change your slogan to "Vote No On Tulsa" and you'll have it alll covered...

if this fails, this town will rapidly become a ****-hole...

Are you trying to say the 'vote no people' pay NO TAXES.  Our taxes are at historically high levels and look at the trouble we're in.  

Once I'm convinced that tax money doesn't get wasted on pet projects (I work for the government, I know) and we are at wits ends to pay for anything, then I'll consider an additional tax.  But let me promise you something, WE AIN'T THERE YET.  FAR FROM IT.

Pet projects like flood control?  We've gone from the highest flood insurance rates in the country to the LOWEST.  That's money in the pockets of Tulsans.  Pet projects like helicopters?  The PD says they need them and I, for one, believe them.  We're a safer, better community because of these things, and I'll bet that they aren't free.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by historically high taxes.  For one thing, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation.  For another, the city of Tulsa has not raised your sales tax since 1983.



 Meanwhile, salaries, insurance, materials, fuel and just about everything else it takes to run a city have outpaced inflation dramatically.  Public safety, for instance, has grown from 50% to 65% of the general fund since 1990!  When you are dealing with a finite piece of pie, and things like that shift so dramatically, then other things go unattended.  Things like streets.  I'm no expert on gub'mint by any stretch, but I'm a quick study.  Study this Council Report and tell me you are still convinced that we are the same city we were in 1983, and that we don't need to do anything to save our butts.  And don't forget other little sales tax tidbits like, the explosive growth of retail in the suburban communities and internet sales.

[Kenosha]

From yesterday's Daily Oklahoman:

quote: Tue December 4, 2007
http://newsok.com/article/3176815/1196752289

Here's why we're rooting for downtown Tulsa

By Steve Lackmeyer
Main Street
Visit downtown Tulsa these days and you'll see for yourself a virtual construction zone. Streets are ripped up, sidewalks torn apart, and detour signs are just the outward signs of a city in transition.



Residents of the state's largest city bristle at comparisons to the transformation of downtown Oklahoma City. It's odd to be the outsider in Tulsa — visiting with ordinary folks, one gets the impression the two cities are in some sort of fierce rivalry where only one can emerge victorious.

Yet while traveling a few weeks back with a handful of some of Oklahoma City's most powerful corporate leaders, I heard nothing but concern for Tulsa.

The October flight coincided with two much-anticipated votes in both cities — a school bond election for Oklahoma City Public Schools and a sales tax to further development along Tulsa's Arkansas River corridor.

This may surprise Tulsans, but the Oklahoma City delegation was rooting for both issues to pass.

Their anxiety over the school bond election was easy to understand. After witnessing Oklahoma City's resurgence the past decade, they believe one of the biggest hurdles remaining is the city's schools.

But they were just as eager to see a win up in Tulsa. They cared because despite perceptions in their sister city, the state needs both cities to be economic powerhouses if it's to overcome historical disadvantages. And, yes, they were disappointed to hear the Tulsa tax had been voted down — even as the Oklahoma City school bond issue was winning by an almost historic margin of victory.

Tulsa isn't down for the count. The city's new arena is truly a masterpiece that Oklahoma City residents can only admire.

And the pain being encountered by businesses, downtown workers and visitors isn't without precedent. It was a decade ago that similar logistical nightmares were to be found throughout downtown Oklahoma City.

But the big success stories seem to be eluding downtown Tulsa; a development deal for a Wal-Mart fell through.

And there appears to be no sign that the once-ambitious plans heralded by Henry Kaufman and Maurice Kanbar for one-third of downtown Tulsa they bought two years ago will be fulfilled now that the two men have ended up in a court fight in San Francisco.

Some may also worry about recent reports that the operator of Tulsa's historic Brady Theater has discontinued its promotions and that, for now, the landmark no longer will be hosting performances as it has for decades. The Brady is more than just a downtown Tulsa institution. It is also the anchor for the city's fledgling entertainment district.

It's interesting that Oklahoma City, with a downtown area that has so little going for it, has come so far in the past decade. Consider all that downtown Tulsa has — not just the Brady, but also Cain's Ballroom; the incredible Art Deco downtown skyline; and a river that never needed to be mowed three times a year.

What's evident in Tulsa is that there is no unified vision for its downtown. I'm not sure that the impulse to look at Oklahoma City as a foe needing to be vanquished will revitalize Tulsa's inner-core.

But with time, and with vision and leadership, downtown Tulsa will thrive again. And I know many Oklahoma City folks who will be cheering for that resurgence with every bit of enthusiasm as they have for their own hometown.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by historically high taxes.  For one thing, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation.  

What is you source for that, if I may ask?

Never mind, I found it.  I did not that the same study shows Oklahoma's state/local tax burden is 45th.

Any idea how Tulsa's local tax burden compares to other cities?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by historically high taxes.  For one thing, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation.  

What is you source for that, if I may ask?

The Tax Foundation.  Just so's you know, they are the premier tax watchdog group.  They are the ones that came up with Tax Freedom Day.

http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html

or pdf

http://taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burden_oklahoma-2007-04-04.pdf

Why do you ask?  Skeptical?

[spoonbill]

Ogh! Watching our city try to work is exhausting.  

The proposal I heard this morning was for an increase in property taxes to pay for the streets.  
This would add a significant amount of money to mortgage payments (up to $20 a month for a $100k home).  

This is so stupid and short sighted, I can't believe it.

An additional two penny gas tax would take care of our roads for a very long time.  It would mean an extra spending of around $4 a month to the average oklahoma driver, and exceptionally more to heavy vehicles trucks and industry.  This is a use tax that could be structured with an expiration date, and would not stifle growth like an increase in property tax.

But of course no one is going to touch this idea because a certain car rental company would be impacted.

You guys are killing me!

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

Ogh! Watching our city try to work is exhausting.  

The proposal I heard this morning was for an increase in property taxes to pay for the streets.  
This would add a significant amount of money to mortgage payments (up to $20 a month for a $100k home).  

This is so stupid and short sited, I can't believe it.

An additional two penny gas tax would take care of our roads for a very long time.  It would mean an extra spending of around $4 a month to the average oklahoma driver, and exceptionally more to heavy vehicles trucks and industry.  This is a use tax that could be structured with an expiration date, and would not stifle growth like an increase in property tax.

But of course no one is going to touch this idea because a certain car rental company would be impacted.

You guys are killing me!

No.  Nobody is going to touch it because there was a STATEWIDE vote in 2005 and the gas tax failed miserably.  And a local gas tax is stupid because people will simply buy their gas someplace else.

It ain't Tulsa's fault, or Taylor's for that matter.  I don't disagree that a gas tax would be a very appropriate solution, but I doubt the legislature is going to tackle this one again any time soon.  It's great that you are thinking, but try not to spin so much, you are making me dizzy.[]

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by historically high taxes.  For one thing, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation.  

What is you source for that, if I may ask?

The Tax Foundation.  Just so's you know, they are the premier tax watchdog group.  They are the ones that came up with Tax Freedom Day.

http://taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/475.html

or pdf

http://taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burden_oklahoma-2007-04-04.pdf

Why do you ask?  Skeptical?

My edit and your answer crossed in the mail, so to speak.  I ask because I like to look at source material.  Some sources are more reliable than other.  Don't be gettin' all defensive on me.  ;-)

As I mentioned above, I did note that the study you cited shows Oklahoma's state and local tax burden is 45th, not 50th.  (Indeed, the overall burden drops to 50th when the federal tax burden is included.)

Any idea how Tulsa's local tax burden (which is, after all, what we are speaking of) compares to other cities?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by historically high taxes.  For one thing, Oklahoma has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation.  

What is you source for that, if I may ask?

Never mind, I found it.  I did not that the same study shows Oklahoma's state/local tax burden is 45th.

Any idea how Tulsa's local tax burden compares to other cities?

Bates has tried, sort of.  During the River Tax, he tried to compare Tulsa's property tax to statewide averages of other states, but that's highly misleading.  Statewide averages include rural areas, which, of course, are going to have much lower assessments than an urban area.

This is something that would take some research.  I'd be willing to work on it, but not if you spinmeisters are going to ignore it.[]  Lemme know.  I'm thinking KC, Dallas, OKC, and Wichita.  What's so hard about it is how each city gets their money.  KC gets some city income tax, dallas has property taxes that are through the roof.  I'd have to try to use the same methodology that the Census, or Tax Foundation does.