BOK Center... Almost here.....

[cannon_fodder]

Spoonbill, if you are alluding to them building an arena (3 vowels, 5 letters - check) I just don't see it happening. With Pryor having an outdoor venue that got props from Rolling Stone (December issue, best festivals of the year...) and Tulsa having several large indoor venues just down the road (which they are paying for by county taxes) I don't see that happening.  

Not to mention allowing large concerts in Broken Arrow?  I don't see the suburban masses being too thrilled about that.  Avoiding large numbers of questionable people they don't know, noise, and general masses is why they live in a suburb to begin with.

And maybe I'm dense, but of all the outdoor venues I have been too none are nestled in a suburban retail area just off of a freeway.  Somerset, Red Rock, Lake Shore Park, Central Park (I realize we are talking about a scale difference).  I could see a large public park that could be used as a venue, but not a venue per se... and the idea of an arena seems very far fetched to me.  Possible mid-sized or larger  venues within 20 miles:

Tulsa Ice Rink (used as a venue in many towns)
The Brady
The PAC
Convention Center
Expo Square Pavilion
BOk Arena
QT Center
Drillers Stadium
Reynolds Center
Mabee Center
Chapman Music Hall
Osage Million Dollar Elm Events Center
Cherokee Casino Expo

and that's the 2 minute list I came up with!  Unlikely we need another mid-sized venue.

then lets add:
River Parks West (and associated pavilion)
D-Fest location in downtown
Mohawk Park (no noise problems there)
Pryor
and about two dozen other local parks around town large enough and isolated enough to handle such crowds.

Seems the need is well fulfilled in the market.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Spoonbill, if you are alluding to them building an arena (3 vowels, 5 letters - check) I just don't see it happening. With Pryor having an outdoor venue that got props from Rolling Stone (December issue, best festivals of the year...) and Tulsa having several large indoor venues just down the road (which they are paying for by county taxes) I don't see that happening.  

Not to mention allowing large concerts in Broken Arrow?  I don't see the suburban masses being too thrilled about that.  Avoiding large numbers of questionable people they don't know, noise, and general masses is why they live in a suburb to begin with.

And maybe I'm dense, but of all the outdoor venues I have been too none are nestled in a suburban retail area just off of a freeway.  Somerset, Red Rock, Lake Shore Park, Central Park (I realize we are talking about a scale difference).  I could see a large public park that could be used as a venue, but not a venue per se... and the idea of an arena seems very far fetched to me.  Possible mid-sized or larger  venues within 20 miles:

Tulsa Ice Rink (used as a venue in many towns)
The Brady
The PAC
Convention Center
Expo Square Pavilion
BOk Arena
QT Center
Drillers Stadium
Reynolds Center
Mabee Center
Chapman Music Hall
Osage Million Dollar Elm Events Center
Cherokee Casino Expo

and that's the 2 minute list I came up with!  Unlikely we need another mid-sized venue.

then lets add:
River Parks West (and associated pavilion)
D-Fest location in downtown
Mohawk Park (no noise problems there)
Pryor
and about two dozen other local parks around town large enough and isolated enough to handle such crowds.

Seems the need is well fulfilled in the market.

I agree, don't know if it can be a success or not, but there are color site plans floating around and meetings taking place.  They apparently are being backed by a national sponsor for naming rights.  From what I hear the idea is not to take away from Tulsa (and not based on what WE need), but to take away from Bonner Springs, Redrock and other larger venues.  The outside grounds can be converted into one large outside venue or several stages set apart by topography.  Parking count is their biggest obstacle right now.  They have a decent plan for traffic flow and the expansion of arterials already.  

On the grounds they have several theme restaurants, a music museum, and several businesses that would operate regardless of activity on the big stage.  The inside arena portion is connected to a conference center that attaches to the hotel.  The arena is in shaded relief which leads me to believe it is a phase 2 or 3.

That is everything I know.

[bmuscotty]

The Mowhawk Park concert space would be a great location to be developed.  Great location, good highway access, and its a pretty spot. Would need a lot of work though: wider paved roads going in and out, permanent parking lot, seating, stage, bathrooms, etc..... last concert I went to out there years ago it rained. The place was a sea of mud. The city (or whoever) put hay down everywhere but it didn't help much.

[TheArtist]

Found these pics on Skyscraper Page by JEMack...

All I can say is WOW! This thing is beautiful. I almost can't believe something like this is going up in Tulsa.  Seems way beyond what could be expected for this town.  






Live cam view.

http://99.157.43.17/view/view.shtml?imagePath=/mjpg/video.mjpg&size=1

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

This one reminds me what a damn eyesore the Page Belcher Federal Building is.  Now that's a building that could be torn down to make space for arena/convention center development, if Uncle Sam ever felt like building a new one.  I spend a summer working there and it's really nothing worth saving.  Anybody got any idea what the odds are of getting a new Federal Building any time soon?

[Renaissance]

Here's the website for new federal courthouse projects.  http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?programId=8393&channelId=-12922&ooid=8294&contentId=14152&pageTypeId=8195&contentType=GSA_BASIC&programPage=%2Fep%2Fprogram%2FgsaBasic.jsp&P=PM

Tulsa is on the list, but there is no telling when it could happen.  Not before 2012 though, if you navigate that site to the project funding guide.  

Rep. Sullivan ought to put this on his list.  Maybe I'll email his office tomorrow about it.

[cannon_fodder]

I worked in that building too, it's crap all around.  The court rooms on the top floor are OK, otherwise even the courtrooms are junk.  The access is awkward because of new security and it is indeed, very ugly.  

BUT, the BOk center is wonderful.  I'm glad that since we decided to go, we went all out.  No point i building a half-assed project to sit around for 50 years.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

The access is awkward because of new security and it is indeed, very ugly.  

Man, that is something that bothers me about so many places.  Stupid security updates have ruined the architectural intent of building after building.  When I go to a building, my natural inclination is to head for what architecturally looks the most inviting, the most like an entrance.  Because of half-assed "security" updates, so often you now have to go in some stupid side entrance, while the clearly designed entryway sits unused and locked up.

Some of this can be attributed to a switch from walkable to automotive society, as street widenings have encroached territory all the way up to the front entrance, and people are too lazy to walk more than 50 feet, so giant parking lots are built to the side and the side/back is used as an entrance.  But, "security" reasons are a big problem as well.

[FOTD]

The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....

Sorry to tell you the truth.

[mrhaskellok]

I have never considered Downtown Tulsa a place to go and walk around and see the attractions, but for what it is worth, I was in Downtown the other day (first time in a while) and I was impressed.  Lots of good streetscape work  being done.  The arena does look slightly strange ( I prefer the design of the stadium in Bricktown in OKC), but it was nice to see something really new.  

The most interesting part of my visit downtown was going to the 16th floor of the ONEOK and looking down at the river.  Minus the refineries, I thought the view and landscape was really nice.  In fact, having spent a summer in San Antonio on their river walk and downtown OKC for two months on theirs', I think Tulsa has a lot more going for itself.

ERGO, while I am not saying that the river walk was a good idea as purposed recently, the river is an asset and I am excited to see how this generation and future ones find ways to make it "work" for Tulsa.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....

Sorry to tell you the truth.

Examples in other cities, please.  OKC, an identical market, seems to be doing quite well with theirs . . . . Just want something other than speculation backing your "truth."

SMG isn't the kind of company that lets an arena under their management lie fallow.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....

Sorry to tell you the truth.

Examples in other cities, please.  OKC, an identical market, seems to be doing quite well with theirs . . . . Just want something other than speculation backing your "truth."

SMG isn't the kind of company that lets an arena under their management lie fallow.

The Ford Center attendance fell off after a few years of sensation. I think they average 9,000 an event.

I remember when our civic center would lose out to slightly bigger markets because of the number of seats being sold.

Just a hunch based on an educated guess. Wait to see...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....

Sorry to tell you the truth.

The arena is one piece of a larger puzzle. A puzzle that still has many pieces that need to be put into place. I think people want to see Tulsa and downtown Tulsa succeed. There are people who will keep pushing until we get the vibrant downtown, city and county we hope will happen.

One can either envision a future in which Tulsa is a vibrant and growing city or stagnant. Once you choose which vision you want, you then begin to put the pieces of the puzzle into place and keep pushing for that vision to come to fruition.

We can say it wont work, or we can do what it takes to make it work.

You can either come up with ideas to help make it work, or not. Its up to you. But I choose to try and figure out ways to make it work, to make Tulsa into the kind of city I imagine.

I kind of feel sorry for someone who seems so fatalistic, so lazze fair about a negative outcome.

If someone was so sure it wouldnt work, and they really honestly cared. I would think they would be the one pushing all that much harder to come up with creative ideas TO make it work, to make things succeed. Because indeed if it does fail, you will pay for it just as surely as I.

 Its going to be built, its being built, you or I can have no influence on that. You and I can have an influence on whether it fails or succeeds. What are you going to do?

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....

Sorry to tell you the truth.

Sorry to tell you the truth, but you're completely ignorant.  Multiple other cities that are much smaller than Tulsa sell out arenas this size for many years.  Big name music acts and NCAA tourney games are not hard to sell out.  Do a little research before you post your personal conventional wisdom as factual information.  The success of the BOk Center is not a mere opinion of well-wishers, it is an extremely intelligent guess based on market research and a plethora of anecdotal examples.

[perspicuity85]

Maybe this will finally quell the arena critics:


Alltel Arena in Little Rock, whose MSA has about 250,000 LESS people than Tulsa's.  It opened in 1999, and recently hosted NCAA tourney games in which the lowest game attendance was 16,000 out of 18,000 total seats.

Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines, whose MSA has about 350,000 less people than Tulsa's.  The arena opened in 2005 and seats 17,000.

Qwest Center in Omaha, whose MSA has about 75,000 less people than Tulsa's.  The Qwest Ctr.  opened in 2003 and seats 18,000.

Times Union Center in Albany, NY, whose MSA has about 50,000 less people than Tulsa's.  This arena opened in 1990 and seats 17,500.

The BOk Center is also being marketed by SMG, the world leader in venue management, marketing, and development.  You can find a complete list of SMG's clients here.

The only regret we should have about the BOk Center is that we didn't build it sooner.  We were passed up by multiple other cities, missed out on tons of revenue (opportunity cost), and allowed rising construction costs to bite us in the donkey.  However, the iconic design of the BOk Center partially makes up for it.  Pelli is a world-class architect, whose work is probably studied by every architecture student in the world.